Author Topic: Anti-D00d measures  (Read 6461 times)

TheGeneral

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« Reply #30 on: December 01, 2002, 08:56:22 pm »
irago, I completely dissagree with the \"lower\" the guild power part of your post. First of all, what about the already established guilds, that have a good amount of members. If guild establishment were to get limited, some of the current guilds would \"dissapear\" just due to lack of members, not to say that they are bad guilds. I think the part about easy identification will be implemented. And since PK is not available, well, there needs to be no worries about \"kill you on site if no money is given\" Also, the main purpose of a guild right now, as I understand this, is to provide for a sense of a mini community within the game, to make for a small economy, a feudal system if you will, where the guild is large enough to nake it\'s own armor, potions, and weapons. Also, you can get a cool castle, and a bunch of other guild options, like quests, and wars.

As for the rest of your post, I have no real opinion, since it was fairly long, please forgive me if I missed something. :O

*rubs his hands in excitement* Can\'t wait till the \"possay\" is all together....we can go to war...against those.....ah...well, someone is bound to do something.....eventually.

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Aruneko

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« Reply #31 on: December 02, 2002, 01:04:56 am »
Very nice-- and long-- essay!

I gotta learn to write like that.  (or rather, type)

irago

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« Reply #32 on: December 02, 2002, 05:05:58 pm »
okay, i admit the guild power downgrape was a bit too much, the system is too well started to be changed, drop that idea. but i wish to elaborate a bit on the second part of that: a stable, developer created system of \"uber-guilds\" should be put in place to avoid confusion for new players as of where to belong. these \"uber-guilds\" (stressing the quotes, i can\'t come up with a better name\" should be either preset trader associations, where for example anyone who would want to blacksmith wouls have to join to learn the craft and peruse the smithies (at least in one city, although some contact could be established between the blacksmiths of each community to make blacklisting possible). anyone on a blacklist would have little to no way of getting any weapons or armor, or repairing those he already has (item deterioration should be a must to drain money from the system, and would suit this well; once again, i doubt the developers are planning to make everything of hyperindentable steel, so i\'m prolly reiterating). that, and of course geographical communities (cities, and nearby villages). these associations should be rather easy to join, the acceptation being more-or-less a formality, although charge should be given to players and they should be encouraged to come up with whatever fancy rituals, oaths, or (simple!) tests to let new people in. of course the downside could be the above-average hand-to-hand combat system (nice touch with the three schools and all, my respect to the developers), but then again, i could very well imagine let\'s say monastic orders of Argan, Esteria, and wosshisnameagain, who would keep their arts a secret form non-members (each teaching melee and their appropriate school). also the whole point of the system would be that the players could take absolutely nothing for granted (skill advancement, shopping or anything); a lot of things would be sort of privileges, although easy to gain, when lost, very tough to regain. i imagine blacklisting/banishing being a more usual, easy to administer (without intervention of the game administrators), and far more annoying punishment than the traditional banning.

the system that was described from everquest might be annoying, but it is (to the matter this can be said about fantasy themed games) realistic. no matter how hard you train or how well-made (i want to point back to the idea of not particularly strong enchantments on most - 95% or more - items) your armor is, a dragon\'s flame breath that could crisp-fry an elephant WILL hurt you without magical assistance. and as for spell casters, they will be a little frailer, and the dragon has several centuries of life experience, tons of muscle weight, and severals tens of kilograms of brain matter, hrak innate magical power to be defeated by spells one humanoid can muster alone. the eventual scaling of monster power should be based on the average level or power rating in the group attacking him, or should rise with each additional member (not the full amount as if a single enemy of the power of the group together of course), so a monster will still be a challenge, even should a LOT of people group to defeat him.

also, i\'ve come up with an ingenious (and prolly revolutionary, i never seen it anywhere before, excuse and correct me if i\'m wrong) idea: let\'s divide skill advancement in two independent parts - theory and practice. theory would be gained by being mentored (the usual skill point payment at a mentor, or (gads!) at level advancement), but would per se be useless, and then the traditional clickalot-to-advance (although of course, only those uses of the skill that would make actual sense - that deal/heal damage, or have any tangible effect would count) would increase the practice component, which would actually make the skill better, give access to new abilities and the usual. the theory component would determine the cap to which the skill can be practiced. of course, the practicing should be sensibly faster than in the system i described before, of course.

Irago, god how i hate people using numbers, weird characters, or only sensible dangerously sounding english words in their in-game names, not to mention multiple capitals in one...

sozin

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DMs crush D00wds
« Reply #33 on: December 26, 2004, 02:30:20 am »
a great way we\'ve found out to crush k00l d00wds on avlis (http://www.avlis.org) is to have DMs stomp them flat.  

k00l d00wd going out of character (OOC)?  DM using the NWN dungeon master client gives \'em a -100 XP cookie.  k00l d00wd complains about it?  -1 lvl them.  They keep bitching?  Strip \'em of of all their l33t items.  Eventually they get the picture and go find some other game/server to bust up.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2004, 02:31:03 am by sozin »

Couatl

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« Reply #34 on: December 26, 2004, 02:43:36 am »
Ugh! I want to maim and kill said kewl d00ds.. and their PK cousin.. They were the reason every piece of my equipment went missing when I played conquer online, and thus I couldn\'t play anymore. :|

Anyways, I play dungeons and Dragons occasionally. Getting ready to DM a campaign online, and people who play under my games know I hate idiots. They try to pull the munchkin act and they die for no reason; just because I can be a grouchy little woman when an idiot is ruining it for other people. :)

Dont ask me what I would do to botters, pk nuts and kewl d00ds if I ran a game.. The only answer is \"It isn\'t pretty.\"

Foresteer

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« Reply #35 on: December 26, 2004, 10:43:47 am »
My view on \"dewds\" \"greifers\" and the BAD \"pk cousin\" (PK can be a very good and exciting thing... however the \"bi*** code\" is the worst idea since the invention of  arsonic.. also \"OMG joo gots PWNDED! lolol\" isn\'t gaming at all)  is hate.. i don\'t mean hate like \"aww the dewds are here this sucks :(\" i mean H A T E.. like they cannot undergo enough misery in my opinion.. hell if it exsisted would be getting off easy  >:( for them..  

now guilds are ok.. but it has been proposed that guilds \"own\" cities and decide what happens in them and who can use what.. NO no no.. that is just the lazy way of avoiding putting a political system in games even in medieval times guilds wheren\'t much more then small fraternities of tradesmen sharing ideas and resources, therefore they couldn\'t \"rule\" anything (in my opinion combat types can\'t start guilds as \"Guild: Noun

   1. An association of persons of the same trade or pursuits, formed to protect mutual interests and maintain standards.
   2. A similar association, as of merchants or artisans, in medieval times.\" But then again combats start groups that where \"Clans\" so why create something of a different name.. just complicates things)

Therefore A Government system is the Ultimant Anti-\"D00d\" Panacea (absolute cure)  as even a \"lowly\" citizen if sociable popular and propses good ideas can be elected mayor (or one of the town council) and is BAM ten times as powerful as a \"dewd\" or \"griefer\" who spent weeks building his \"OMG l33t swod sk1llz\" as he can decree \"Sir PWNS-ALOT has hereby been banned from Hydlaa.. he loses all use of shops, Saftey, Banking and Creatures in this town.. should he return he will be openly killable and exacuted on site\"

A sector \"govanor\" or \"senate member\" could outcast over all the area they control.. if a griefer/dewd gets enough complaints the Senate (we don\'t want just ONE head ruler thats asking for trouble) gets involved.. the \"dewd\" can still play naturaly.. just can use anything.. and is openly killable EVERYWHERE by EVERYBODY.. can\'t buy anything, store anything and can\'t do anything worth anything.. guess it \"sux0rs t0 b hem!\".

Naturally there could be failsafes like impeachment or rebellion if a mayor or official gets eleceted then goes \"AWOL\" ostrisizing anybody who talks anything he doesn\'t like or just because he feels like it (no matter how powerful one might be.. One hundred are stronger then he!),

 Also Guilds Should Give Exp to all the members within.. \"You Have REcieved # exp from your guild\" But not RAW exp.. if you are a warrior in a guild of miners then \"You Have Recieved 20 Mining Exp From Your Guild\" and so on... or a generic trade guild will have like \"You Recieved 10 Alchemy Exp 15 Lumberjack Exp 40 Masonry Exp\" as thats what the members are leveling so you get some of the exp through shared ideas of the guild (you would only get Theoretical Exp.. though) so if you where in a mismatched guild you wouldn\'t learn much of what you want to learn.. but if you wanted to take up smithing but you where a warrior then that would work well.. the primise is \"If i am a potter.. but am around a lumberjack long enough.. i will learn a good deal about lumberjacking\"

It also needs to be tradesmen are \"Equal But Different\" then warriors, this game looks like it will pull it off nicely.. but most games do not: As in the warriors get all those IMPOSSIBLE drops (come on a does a water demon really have \"OMG fire +300 Sword of one hit kill\"? or does a wright really have 300 gold coins to drop? the answer to both is no)

once a harmony in Government, Tradesmen, Warrior, Mage And Healer is struck The \"dewd\"-ism will basicaly kill itself.. the more it resists the ingrown changes the more it hurts itself.. (like trying to wiggle out of a thorn bush.. the more you struggle the worse you make it for yourself) also with government.. admins will need to involed INFINANTLY less.. as thats what the government is for ;)

EDIT: However after thought.. a goverment couldn\'t stand as if it was assurpable by admins (I.E. not that admins wouldn\'t have a say.. as their says does matter A LOT (to the average player).. but the government would be the chosen leaders (and above the law as its trusted officials would be the law. if they break laws they get impeached)of the people.. and without people.. admins are just people who own a server with a big sandbox to play in by themselves ;).) As such situaltions can arise \"Mayor has Banished from town! Admin  has unbanished from town!\" \"\" Also think how much ever changing gameplay would be added that way :D election over time would add excitment and get rid of the ahem \"problem\" difined in this thread (killing two birds.. got a helpful idea in and gave a solution for making this one of the last bastions of true RP :D)
« Last Edit: December 26, 2004, 12:53:05 pm by Foresteer »
Warning the truth may blow your brain to shreds... Click at your own risk :P[/disclaimer]

Sulatorc

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« Reply #36 on: December 27, 2004, 08:17:04 am »
While i agree with some points i believe most of it is flawed. I will not be writing my dissertation tonight so it will be short and generalized. A healthy gaming community needs a variety of playing style playing the game. A game needs hardcore RPers for it to feel real. Why does you feel like you are immersed into the game? Thank the Hardcore RPers. A game need Powergamers to advance the game. Do you think you would get a \'Sword of Slaying +30\' from discussing the political system of your guild? No, you get it from a player playing to be the best and advancing the content. A game also need a cheater/exploiter. These are most helpful when they are either caught or report the cheat/exploit. Without these and possibly a few more playing styles i am sure the community and the game would become stagnant.

I will agree no community needs griefers but should be prepared for such threats. I doubt a committee would be needed because it will not work. Do you really believe a person will stay around while someone holds senate? sorry but they won\'t. Their main objective is to ruin your fun. Once they accomplish that they leave. I believe a /kick or /ban from a GM would work just fine and be more effective.

I also dislike people who talk in \'l337 sp34k\'. However i allow no one to ruin my time online so i just ignore it. I recommend people to do the same. (/ignore is your friend)

I also play to so I have fun. I don\'t play so other people can have fun.

anyways..that is my opinion and thoughts on a gaming community.

Keyaz

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« Reply #37 on: December 27, 2004, 08:33:12 am »
what.. is everyone posting essays so the devs might pay attention to them? lol as far i can think of, basically we\'ll always have gm\'s and they\'ll be on as much as poss, so , they can monitor the situ and if its decided that someone is drastically spoiling the game for others, they take action further... simple eh

Foresteer

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« Reply #38 on: December 27, 2004, 08:46:30 am »
well the \"power leveler\" is needed kind of like we need death... if we didn\'t have it the world would be packed.. the power leveler does in a way progress the game.. but if anybody wants to compete.. they have to play the game at the \"finish quest! level up! finish quest! level up!\" track mind that kind of robs some of the fun of quests during the \"fresh and new\" phase of your gameply experience...

 also i have found that always and forever a gamer with well intentions that hits the \"high levels\" can act more \"d00d and l33t\" then the lower levels.. I.E.

\"Hello! Hey... Um could you not block the path to the mine please? No, Why? Because i can i block it and i am teh high lvl you can\'t stop me lolololol\" and other similar scenarios... not saying this happens all the time.. just happens.. however a well implemented government could \"Miner: Oh Senator i was being blocked out by the mines.. think you could do anything about that? Senator: Sure.. thats what i ran my campain on remember!\" \"Senator: Sir Commence to unblock the mine at once! No i am high lvl you can\'t stop m..... OMG my l33t l3wt!! Next time play a little more civilized\"

again not that its just a high lvl combat problem (high level trademen do the same thing but differently using their \"l3t trad3s\") and it doesn\'t happen often either.. but it only takes one like that to make a large area around them not very fun..

That is why forced PK in games is good and evil.. it causes a \"l33t mentality\" to spread (combats feel full of themselves as they can kill and destroy... lots of \"i will own joo!\" \"no i will own joo! noob lololol\" talk. i once heard a person call it \"hairy knuckle syndrome\" :P) But good in that it lets to good players who respect others \"Lynch\" The bad people as well.. but then again as i stated the forced pk can make more bads to kill XD...

Which leads to an interesting combat tweak.. Have an EXTREME mob defence penalty (maybe even an attack penalty.. you can\'t swing that 7 foot \"l33t sword of +12 doom if you don\'t have 7 feet to swing).. becuase come on you could have \"Sir Mighty Paladin Guy\" in all the best armour and weapons.. but just get 5 (or less) tradesmen with daggers and leather shirts.. and yes he may kill one or two maybe even three if hes very good.. but while he is doing that the other two or three have slipped around him and hit his spine, heart, brain etc. (as stated in an earlier post) multi combat has for to long been treated like one-on-one just with more people.. when it isn\'t

As for too long if you don\'t like somebody terrorising an area you had to go to an admin who would place \"thought police\" and \"nerfs\" in place.. when really why not handle it like the time period would? Get a riot and lynch the fool (riots have killed kings and armies before {French Revolution anybody?} so don\'t says its \"un-fair to the combat guy\")

EDIT: admins don\'t have to get involed in every squabble(and shouldn\'t have to).. this frees them up to do other more productive things (i have been an GM and would have loved it if i didn\'t have to basicaly \"babysit\" the whole game) now of corse admins are VERY much needed.. even these ideas can only go so far.. i was just suggesting adding the gratification of letting you and some friend dish out the justice yourselfs on the spot.. not having the only way be to \"tattle\" to an admin.. people feel better and admins feel better (as they are not having to handle every minor squabble)
« Last Edit: December 27, 2004, 08:55:53 am by Foresteer »
Warning the truth may blow your brain to shreds... Click at your own risk :P[/disclaimer]

yoyodim

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« Reply #39 on: December 28, 2004, 01:10:44 am »
This would in some wat describe the way i play the game. but i will never irritate other players with my \"powers\" if i was powerful in the game.

i am a leveler, i like to level up alot and one of my main goals when playing a game like this is to become one of the most powerful players in the world. its fun for me to try, its fun to be powerful, becouse you are kind of elite then.

I know of many people that play the game that way.

they don\'t go stealing items, or killing other players. they just enjoy the game in my own way.
I will sometimes do a quest with a group of friends and will always join a guild. but most of the time i enjoy questing and leveling solo.

An mmorpg that forces group playing is not one i would like to play, becouse i kind of like the loner style.

also players like me add to the realism of the game, in mythical universes there are always strong loners, like the bear shapeshifter in tolkiens \"the hobbit\", named Beorn.

so the problem to me does not lie with power gamers with high levels, but those that use their high levels to annoy other players.

So levelers are not the same as d00ds

and a leveler does not get his power by cheating or exploiting, but trough hard work training and leveling his character.

be sure that when restricing noobs in the game you don\'t hurt the levelers to.

greets,
Dimitri

Foresteer

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« Reply #40 on: December 28, 2004, 08:48:52 am »
which is a very good thing.. and i am also against forced group play in combat.. but then again SOME enemies will have to be defeated by a group (but isn\'t that even more cool? \"I was in the first battle of dragons lance when the great  dragon Malador ShadowWing fell!\")

Also i realize power levelers are not evil... just all that \"power\" sometimes taints.. i salute the high level who goes around helping instead of abusing the level they have gained (which in the end, people surely helped a person get to where they are.. either through answering questions or giving items or gold to get one started... so you are quite literaly scorning the path you took to get where you are and %100 negating your own exsistence in the game if you are \"griefing\" or \"d00ding\" after you have pretended to be a true gamer just to get things..

also as government systems and better Admins/rules are working their way into MMORPG.. your time is slowing coming \"d00d/griefer\" you feel that cold feeling? that the fealing of all those you made life hell for getting their hands around your neck ;)  

Also there is a great need for more like yoyodim (if he speaks the truth about himself.. no reason he wouldn\'t be though :D) those who play for the sheer gratification of playing; not of killing others or depriving others...
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JellyWerker

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« Reply #41 on: December 28, 2004, 07:16:56 pm »
Great post athelas, whoever originally wrote that should be a psychologist (sp?).
Warning: Prone to common sense.


Ikarsik

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« Reply #42 on: December 29, 2004, 11:34:09 am »
wow... I want to be the kewlest kewl d00d ever when i grow up

Sulatorc

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« Reply #43 on: December 29, 2004, 05:52:35 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Foresteer
also as government systems and better Admins/rules are working their way into MMORPG..


I do not believe that a game should have a rigid government system. why you ask? well.....

Quote
Originally posted by Foresteer
 just all that \"power\" sometimes taints..


couldn\'t have said it better myself. :)  After reading some post here i doubt if some of you can handle the power. Which in all fairness, power combined with rudeness is the real reason people hate \'d00ds\'. Rudeness is in every playing style. I know i could pull some rude remarks from this forum made by some hardcore RPers. Rudeness plus power is definately a bad combination. I am sure you will agree.

I am sure if the d00d from the first post would have partied up the group things would have turned out differently. Also someone would not have something to complain about. KeWl d00d would have killed the monster in two hits and the party would have shared the loot. What is bad about that? (eventhough i think it is more fun to have a longer battle)

I am sure if your government system is implimented you will have many people complaining. Whether it is from abuse of power or getting targeted because of their playing style. It will be compounded if most if not all the \'senators\' are friends. Who is going to go against a friend? Also who is going to stop these group of friends or senators from abusing thier power if the GM and senators are friends? That is why i think a fair, patient, and understanding GM is more valuable than a bunch of friends wielding power. That is where they step into the realm of d00dism (according to some who have posted here).

I am not writing this post to defend \'d00ds\' but to say that all playing styles belong in the game. I also believe people regardless of their playing style should be helpful to other players. If that means going OOC then so be it. I have to go OOC everytime i \'try\' to complete one of the quest on PS so going OOC to help someone is not out of the question.

Foresteer

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« Reply #44 on: December 30, 2004, 07:41:59 am »
A Valid Point... But Aren\'t Admins almost always friends?

Quote
Originally posted by Foresteer
Naturally there could be failsafes like impeachment or rebellion if a mayor or official gets eleceted then goes \"AWOL\" ostrisizing anybody who talks anything he doesn\'t like or just because he feels like it (no matter how powerful one might be.. One hundred are stronger then he!),
 


In other words those who the people elect can just as soon \"un-elect\" (no matter what even if the whole senate was a group of people if the same room holding hands and singing the \"friends forever\" song.. if the people hate them.. they are gone, goner and gonest :P)

Quote
Originally posted by Sulatorc I am sure if the d00d from the first post would have partied up the group things would have turned out differently. Also someone would not have something to complain about. KeWl d00d would have killed the monster in two hits and the party would have shared the loot. What is bad about that?


Well its kind of the same thing as \"twinking\" somebody got something for nothing and didn\'t get any satisfaction from it... the whole game could become \"ahh let the power-leveler fight we\'ll just sit here... yawwwwnn\" (case in point \"knight online\" still in beta testing but wayyyy boring as only 2 people out of a party fight.. the rest sit and watch)

EDIT:
Quote
Originally posted by Sulatorc That is why i think a fair, patient, and understanding GM is more valuable than a bunch of friends wielding power.


Well until you have a \"You have entred PK are! By entering this are you are agreeing you can and will be killed!!\" \"Admin_Randomname Has Killed You!!\"
\"You Have Respawned In Pk Area! You Can And Will Be Killed!\"
\"You Have Killed Admin_Randomname!!\"
\"Error.. Connection Closed! You have been perma-banned for abusing an administrator!!\"

Abuse Forum \"Admin_Randomname Posts: Well i was in the Pk area doing buisness and was stopping me by killing me over and over.. i had to ban him\"

\"AnotherRandom_Admin Posts: Awwww thats horrible :( you did the right thing :D!! Go You!! :D\"

\"HighLevelAdminSlave Posts: Yeah n00bs are always getting in the way... way to go Admin_Randomname!! (if i was admin *hint* i would have done that too ;) lol)\"

\" Posts: What?! he killed me and i killed him back to get my things back!!\"



Situation then yesh it would seem like that would work

I drew all that from an ACTUAL event(s) in game(s) i have played.. so forgive me (seriosly) for being a little cynical of admins and gm\'s holding all the power all the time

(not that the original admins or gms are that way.. but eventualy the people need a say in how things work too... In Real Life consumers of products have the BBB to say when buisness are being unfair.. When Admins are unfair we get a quarter.. to call somebody who cares XD )
« Last Edit: December 30, 2004, 07:58:34 am by Foresteer »
Warning the truth may blow your brain to shreds... Click at your own risk :P[/disclaimer]