Author Topic: Anti-D00d measures  (Read 6481 times)

Morlark

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« Reply #45 on: December 30, 2004, 01:45:22 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Foresteer
I drew all that from an ACTUAL event(s) in game(s) i have played.. so forgive me (seriosly) for being a little cynical of admins and gm\'s holding all the power all the time

(not that the original admins or gms are that way.. but eventualy the people need a say in how things work too... In Real Life consumers of products have the BBB to say when buisness are being unfair.. When Admins are unfair we get a quarter.. to call somebody who cares XD )


This is why when a game gets sufficiently big it needs a good system of making complaints. It tends not to be a problem in smaller games, because the admins are often the people who built the game from the ground up, and so they have a good idea of what the game should look like. But when the game gets big enough that the admins have to start picking GMs from within the player base problems start cropping up. Obviously the admins are only going to pick GMs that they trust, but nobody\'s perfect, and so occasionally there\'s going to be a rogue GM who tries abuse their power. If there is a strong and well advertised method by which players can make complaints (against other players of against GMs) then, combined with keeping logs, this can reduce problems. Of course in games where the GMs are going to just back each other up, and ignore the problem, as in the example you provided, then the game isn\'t worth playing.


As to the problem of spawn camping to get good items, one thing that I thought might at least alleviate the problem is this. Rather than making it so that items only spawn once every so often, why not limit the total number of them available. That way the items won\'t drop at all, until an already existing one gets destroyed, or lost, or something. And since players won\'t know when the limit has been reached, or when an item has become available it isn\'t worth their while to always spawn camp. Combine this with making item drops not always from the same mobs/in the same place, and it might work. Of course this raises the problem of people maybe hoarding items, so maybe it\'s not so great after all. I dunno.

Watcher

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« Reply #46 on: December 30, 2004, 04:11:18 pm »
Uh um the goverment stystem is already worked out
Quote
Eight dignitaries called \"Octarchs\" rule the city; each of them supervises and is responsible for one level of Yliakum. Together they form the \"Circle of the Octarchs\" or \"Internal Circle\", that takes decisions regarding all the people living in the city.

Immediately under an Octarch there are twenty \"Vigesimi\", high civil servants that deal with law and order. There are 160 \"Vigesimi\" in total and they form the \"External Circle\". At the beginning of every year there is a meeting of all Octarchs and Vigesimi that lasts for several months. In this event they evaluate all expenses and revenue of the previous year, all complaining, problems, etc... Vigesimi normally come from the Craft Guilds of each level, and their position is hereditary. Nevertheless is not too rare to find some high citizens that are elected thanks to people acclamation, taking place of Vigesimi that are dead, that are judged inept or that are found to be guilty of thievery.

At the beginning of every season takes place the meeting of all Vigesimi of a level, generally (but not always) directed by the Octarch. During these short meetings the members of the External Circle can elect a new Octarch if the previous is dead or too old. An Octarch can\'t be removed, nevertheless in some cases the Octarch was assassinated because it was too cruel, inept, dishonest, etc... One of the most famous cases is the one of Fertedian Dalko, Octarch of the 4th level, that was tied to a hypnotized Megaras and sent straight towards the Crystal.
 
« Last Edit: December 30, 2004, 04:11:47 pm by Watcher »

Foresteer

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« Reply #47 on: December 30, 2004, 04:37:55 pm »
Ahh maybe.. maybe not... just because there is government \"lore/backstory\" doesn\'t mean WE can do government.. (wow what a short post i have made :D)
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Watcher

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« Reply #48 on: December 30, 2004, 04:40:39 pm »
It isnt just backstory, let me quote a specific part for you

Quote
Nevertheless is not too rare to find some high citizens that are elected thanks to people acclamation, taking place of Vigesimi that are dead, that are judged inept or that are found to be guilty of thievery.

Foresteer

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« Reply #49 on: December 30, 2004, 04:47:08 pm »
I read it all and again that is in the \"lore\" section.. so maybe.. maybe not (i realise it what it says but that is on the rather large assumption that \"some high citizens\" are players and not some ficticious parts of the story written you it makes since that your \"father\" can be in government)

I am just going to aire on that side of caution and not assume anything ;).. but by all means i hope you are right
« Last Edit: December 30, 2004, 04:49:01 pm by Foresteer »
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IceCold

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« Reply #50 on: January 05, 2005, 06:42:25 am »
THIS IS A VERY SERIOUS MATTER....

We already have mining bots, and I dont think we can stop them easy :(((((((((

Im sory I have to revive this old post again but now that planeshift has made another milestone with cb I think we need to consider this subject a bit more and very very carefully.

I didint read all of the posts but I did read the original essay and mantars reply, also skiped the other great ideas.

So my point is:

Venge praised mantars essay alot but I think the original essay fits reality alot more. I say this because since 2002 Iv played several rpgs and quit most of them... hell Im just quiting one right now (knight-online) because of doodism.

The first essay makes a very good point, if you cant log everything make shure your game can log at least those characteristics that make doods screw other ppl lives and our beloved game.

doodism is a VERY SERIOUS problem, so I dont make this post too long Ill just tell about how knight online is going down (pathern is same in all other games) :

- doods exploit bugs and dont report them the result is they get insane laves due to xp bugs (dont realy care about it I play to enjoy myself) and start getting every nice item in the game (In knight online theyv had 4 dupe bugs kept secret for a long time).

- they flood the game with this uber items (they want more and more gold to become totaly invencible). whole economy goes down the drain.

- the brag sindrome comes in.... ksing... luring monsters to town... making ppl life a living hell to get aknowlagment of how strong they are.

- game gets unberable as dudes share theyr secrets with few selected ones and the problems above start increasing to an insane lvl.

FIXING :
- baning does nothing, they find new ways, start over chars, the purpose of the game for them is to be incencible and they shure adapt fast (every single rpg I played this last 3 years).

- dont tell yourself gms will work either, there are alot of this guys and if paid games cant have gms roaming the maps and hunting this guys fast enough dont think we will (who wants to spend day after day looking for the same ppl and asking everyone if he is playing fair and not macroing/duping/abusing some sort of bug)

- so the very first essay seems the only solution to me, USE THEM, theyr are the top bug searchers in games,  log top players, log top rich people, log as much as you can. if you can log it you can then see what they are exploiting and fixed FAST  (not expecting a bug report).

Foresteer

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« Reply #51 on: January 05, 2005, 06:59:09 am »
Boy howdee... in the future \"knight online player\" is gonna be the new insult about a \"dewd\" instead of a \"battle.net player\"

Thats all i have to say about that really :/ (i got bored of it after ONE WEEK of play.. that game is gonna fail so miserably.. it was crap for a free game.. as a P2P games its REALLY crap)
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TooL

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How to stop what happened?
« Reply #52 on: January 05, 2005, 08:40:52 am »
Want to know how to stop what happened?

Kill that d00d before he even enters that room.  One problem with that tho, games now-a-days have mechanical restrictions, that d00ds can take advantage of, and grief you.

Yes, combat restrictions, pvp switches, trammels allow griefers to go almost untouched, and if they are smart enough, go un-banned.  From the small things of \"sorry your to low level/wrong class/I dont like you because your hair is gray\" to big things, as in stealing epic items, there is no way to stop this in modern mmorpg\'s.  

Player justice does not exist.  I would rather kill you NOW than argue with customer support, which, in turn makes the game COST MORE.  Look at Dark Age of Camalot and there extensive customer support, and because of newer games taking away there players, they have to RAISE there monthly bills.  While other games, with less than a 1/3 of the DAoC playerbase (ie: shadowbane) still exist, and keep going. Why? Players run the game, and the develpoers/support overlook it, and interfear as little as possable.  Tho Shadowbanes base code is weak and buggy, its release almost MATCHED WoW\'s 200k in a few days... They sold nearly 150,000 copys when it was released, just like WoW, in the first few days.  Doesnt that say ANYTHING at all? People KNEW it was open combat.  It was the major bugs and glitches that turned people off.

There are no solid pvp, player justice games in the market.  None that require skill, its all \"levels over skills\".  A monkey can play a charactor in some of these games.

Hopefully someday, with the open source community, a REAL mmorpg will be created.  Full of quests, monsters, fun, conflict, and player justice, and possably be based on players reactions, charactors skills gained thru the reactions, and NO LEVELS.  UO in 3d, before trammel, when true roleplayers built real towns (paxlair on ches, for example).

Foresteer

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« Reply #53 on: January 05, 2005, 09:02:37 am »
Quote
Originally posted by TooL
There are no solid pvp, player justice games in the market.  None that require skill, its all \"levels over skills\".  A monkey can play a charactor in some of these games.

Hopefully someday, with the open source community, a REAL mmorpg will be created.  Full of quests, monsters, fun, conflict, and player justice, and possably be based on players reactions, charactors skills gained thru the reactions, and NO LEVELS.  UO in 3d, before trammel, when true roleplayers built real towns (paxlair on ches, for example).


Brother... I am still in waiting for the game of which you speak :/ hopefuly one day before i die (in about 50-80+ years depending on science) my wait will be over
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IceCold

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« Reply #54 on: January 05, 2005, 03:19:58 pm »
I played knight online for 3 weeks and am about to quit too but its just an example,  I have started to play tantra and I see macroing all over already, and wont be suprised if I found duping is possible pretty soon.

they adapt  so its useless to ban the, there are entire forums dedicated to cracking mmorpgs they have cracks for about EVERY mmorpg around, and keep doing new stuff, and thats for the beginer d00ds, expert d00ds that found theyr exploits keep them.

Why wouldnt a log system work instead of baning (thats the point of my post  :) )

Something like :

------------>
1 - Query database and start loging top 20 players (20 just an example)

2 - Wen end of the week comes compare the actual char and its possesions with what he had had the begining of the week (auto script, could be about differen?e in \"levels\", diferen?e in money, number of unique items)

3 - Have php do a nice table with difren?es split it and send it to gms (say moogie gets 10 players and gronomist nother 10)

4- Now both of them play the game, and they will realise that  it is impossible for a player to gather 400000000000 gold or xp or great items in a week.

5- Go over the logs (I guess the tricky part is what to log) check what they have been doing.  Maybe traded items/ monsters killed/hours playing. Or even at low lvl like packets sent to the server.

5- Fix whatever the problem was, take away things not gained in a fair way to other players from the d00d.

6- repeat process
----------------->

I know there are many other threads about dealing with d00ds, the reasons I chose to reply here was:

- Some truly intresting points. From the first essay with the log system. To the poisoning well (mantars essay is a pearl). To gm enforced world, and other nice ideas.

- The log system seems to help solve bugs, and keep the game fair.

Edited for language.
« Last Edit: November 20, 2006, 03:44:14 am by Karyuu »