Author Topic: Anti-D00d measures  (Read 6497 times)

cmhitman

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« Reply #15 on: November 20, 2002, 05:06:14 pm »
I thought i posted on this topic earlier?

eh,

I think my post went like this (don\'t be alarmed, it may not sound too intelligent now) :

I didn\'t read the whole thing also, but based on what i did read, and the last post, I think its about looting and experience points. If i\'m correct then:

just let everybody get experience points from shooting an animal, let shots that hit animal while its alive count for exp. and not who kills it and if you get to the body first, you get the loot, problems solved!

if my guess what wrong: Man, you suck! stop posting long ass f*cking essays that only a rocket scientist could decode!

----------------

lol, i crack myself up
« Last Edit: November 20, 2002, 05:22:13 pm by cmhitman »
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Link

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« Reply #16 on: November 20, 2002, 07:46:07 pm »
Your copyright is outdated. Doesn\'t really matter with current copyright laws, just have to change a few words.
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Veretta Hayes

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« Reply #17 on: November 20, 2002, 08:05:12 pm »
Its actually pretty simple :p. and \"nerfing\" is basically getting rid of a skill e.g. If the game started with a \"pickpocket\" skill and found that it was being exploited to get too much stuff off other players, and the devs got rid of it, that would be \"nerfing\" the skill.


Don\'t take life seriously, It\'s not like you\'re gonna get out of it alive.

ParaSite

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« Reply #18 on: November 20, 2002, 08:29:03 pm »
Well if the pickpocketing gets out of hand, we just hire a few extra guards with REALLY big swords!
<Worf> These are the moments when my ego gets put back on the ground. I use linux for quite some time, and am soon 2 years maintainer of a linux distribution. I started to think I would be good at it. But then I tried to get planeshift running.

Vengeance

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« Reply #19 on: November 21, 2002, 06:22:02 am »
I\'ve always interpreted \"nerfing\" to mean either taking it away or just drastically reducing its effectiveness.

For example with pickpocketing, you could eliminate the skill, but more likely it would be nerfed by reducing the probability of its success or making the guards detect it more (making it more dangerous).

- Vengeance

Mantar

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Fair warning - it\'s a long one! Heh.
« Reply #20 on: November 25, 2002, 08:10:28 am »
The essay is interesting, but a bit flawed. In his haste to condemn the varieties of online miscreants he places under the banner of \'d00d\' he oversimplifies things quite a bit, and I think a number of his suggestions would be ineffectual or even counterproductive! He more or less understands the nature of these folks, but misses the subtleties of their behavior and how it affects gameplay in an MMORPG.

 A quick definition of terms would be a good start.
 His #1 category of \'d00d\' appears to be an asocial power gamer, someone who engages in asocial or even antisocial behavior in his singleminded quest for advancement. A better term, borrowed from the pen and paper RPG world, would be \'munchkin.\' For them, the game is an elaborate power fantasy, a chance to be the strongest and most admired, and the essayist has a good grasp of this. (When the GM says \'This campaign will center on politics and intrigue in the courts of 17th century Italy\' a munchkin says \'OOH! OOH! I wanna be a NINJA!\')

 This is different from the grief player, who is either bored or angry and decides to vent his frustration by ruining other people\'s good time. I once encountered a pair of kids on a UO server who were upset -- someone nice had given them a dog in the game, but they hadn\'t fed it properly and it went feral. Of course, a grief player heard the plight of these kids, and promptly killed their dog. >:(
 These types are fortunately rarer than the others, especially in games that have PK-capable player guards, or free PvP. Banning is best used only on the habitual grief player.

 Then we have the twinker - generally a munchkin who has achieved his desired state of power and wealth, he promptly unbalances the game by generously giving valuable items to newbies. A player whose hard-built character gets passed by a first-day player wielding a +37 Sword of Maiming can blame a twinker. Newbies killed by hardcore PvP munchkins also have the twinker to blame - without him, newbies don\'t carry anything worth taking. (Grief players may PK a newbie, but that\'s a symptom of a different problem)
 Twinkers are difficult to smack, since sharing is, um, nice. In a way, they aren\'t a social problem, but an economic one. They appear mostly after a breakdown of the economy - which happens because you have gold and items continually pouring into it with no drain. All this wealth flows downhill, into the pockets of the hoarder, who suddenly can\'t think of anything to do with it but give it away. I\'m short on ideas for this one, except build a viable economy somehow. :D

 Back to the essay! He\'s right that attempting to curb antisocial behavior with strict rules and \'thought police\' is ineffective and damaging to the overall game. It\'s a lot like writing a constitution for a government - governments that force people to behave according to ideology are almost universally unpopular. The only way to make a government work is to build it with an eye to natural law. I.E., you /know/ there will be bad people who will try to abuse power, so you have to /plan/ for that in your system. An MMORPG is not too different, except that you can control the physics, economics, and other stuff ending in ics. It\'s when you get to thinking you can actively dictate human nature that you get into real trouble!
 Essentially, the more rules you apply, the worse things get - grief players thrive in no-pvp games because the rules designed to stop naughty PKs also prevent good players from lynching the jerk who arrives at the wedding, strips naked and tells the bridesmaid \'1 H4V3 PH47 L3W7 N MY L01NCL0TH! W4N7 2 F33L?\'

 Instead of trying to ban antisocial behavior after the fact, good game design can discourage it in an unobtrusive manner, removing much of the reward, and leaving the good players\' freedom intact. (Hopefully including their freedom to deal with antisocial jerks without waiting for an overtaxed staff to get around to it.)

 The basic problem for MMORPGs lies in one of the common mechanisms of most computer-based RPGs -- the advancement system itself. Most CRPGS, and nearly all MMORPGS use a system whereby skills are improved through use. This differs from most pen & paper RPGS, but works out fairly well in CRPGS. It\'s a highly addictive stimulus+response=gain loop for one - both casinos and Space Invaders use this. The problem in using it for an MMORPG is that it rewards people, not for contributing anything useful to the gaming environment, but for their capacity to tolerate tedious and repetitive behavior. (!)
 What this boils down to is that the optimal player under this system is the person with the most idle time on his hands. Usually someone around 13-17 years old who\'s been given his own computer, has no job and who doesn\'t get invited to parties or social gatherings. (LOL) An adult player who works hard and doesn\'t get a nice long summer vacation will never match the young unpopular kid for raw free time, and thus will find himself outpaced at every turn, which discourages him. This means the obnoxious kid will thrive, and everyone else will be left behind.

 Not every game takes this system, mind you -- for example, an MMORPG called Underlight defeats this problem by replacing the standard click-for-skill system with a medieval-styled apprenticeship system. To build your skills, you train with a master, which means you must rely on the other players. If you\'ve been a jerk, you get nowhere. In addition, new skills are given by the staff to players who have done the most for the game, which encourages players to interact, roleplay, and cooperate. It works well and makes Underlight popular with the hardcore rp crowd, especially those with pen and paper backgrounds.
  (Incidentally, this renders macros and bots useless for all but innocuous tasks. :) )

 Similarly, bugs/exploits may be reduced in their severity with a good design. The Orwellian \'log everything everywhere\' route need not be taken, though it sounds helpful for things like resolving disputes.
 One design principle that applies easily is that if you have a source of some commodity that you don\'t want people to use, placing a simple rule sanction on it is not as good as eliminating the value of that resource in the first place. In other words, poison the well and noone will drink from it.
 An example: take the fairy-tale staple of \'changeling\' or \'faery gold\' and apply it to those exploiting munchkins. You deliberately add a \'bug\' whereby if Darkblood Blackmage the n00bk1LL4h puts 10 gold under a rock and his partner Bloodmage Blackshadow the Ub3r-1337 picks it up while Darkblood hits the tree with a herring, there will be 20 gold under the rock. Bloodmage says \'w00t!\' and they begin multiplying their money. HOWEVER, two or three days later they go to check their ph3t bank account and find that all their gold has turned into a big pile of dung. They say \'WTF\' and another player says \'Did you not read the words of the elders when you entered the world? They said that there are many paths to power and wealth, but only the fool chooses the short and easy road, heedless of its perils.\'
 Of course, this particular example would require a lot of planning to close its loopholes, like passing the changeling gold to someone else, using it to buy expensive items from NPCS or other PCs, etc. (Though the possible solutions that come to mind open up some interesting side effects) The underlying concept can be implemented in a myriad of ways, though, and \'Cursed cheats\' are a good way to discourage people from using any bugs they might find, for fear that it might be a trick by the cruel and capricious gods. :)

 The essayist\'s advocation of unlimited level/skill advancement is not a good idea, IMO. It\'s unnecessary and unrealistic, a leftover from D&D that causes nearly all the difficulties related to PvP combat and the like. To illustrate, i\'ll use the classic example of a D&D Dungeon Master and an Anti-D&D Dungeon Master:

 Player d00d: \'I tell the peasants that I am the Dark Knight, Bloodshadow Deathdark the Oh-So-Menacing, and that they will give me all their gold and daughters or I will slay them with my +45 Vorpal Sword of Really Nasty Things.\'

  First, the D&D DM\'s response: \'They refuse. *various rolls* You kill 63 of the level 1 peasants, the remainder flee into the hills never to be seen again.\'

 Just replace the peasants with the essayist\'s \'mid-range average players\' and swap the Dark Knight for The General\'s little portrait entitled \'D00d Standing on Bridge\', and you see why unlimited advancement totally sVx0r5. You should never pin your game on the hope that players *won\'t* be mean to one another. Encouraging them to be nice is a good idea. Expecting them to be nice is a recipe for disaster.


 Now in contrast, an anti-D&D DM: \'They refuse. Pressing you back by sheer force of numbers, they pin you down and begin loosening your armor. One of them produces a dagger and slips it under your breastplate and into your black heart. You are DEAD.\' (Insert evil grin)

 It might be possible to separate combat with monsters from combat with PCs (though probably it would be too complex to be worthwhile) so that unlimited advancement would be possible in monster combat, but most of the advantages would be negligible in PvP, so that one skilled and well-equipped player would hesitate before fighting more than two unskilled poorly-equipped ones, and one-hit slaughters would be next to impossible.
 Under such a system, the grief player at the wedding would be lynched, the guy on the bridge would be taken out, bands of (hopefully rp) highwaymen could operate successfully only in the wilderness, and paladins could gather together to track and eliminate said bands.
  It wouldn\'t be Happy Care-Bear Land where nobody ever fought, tra-la!, but with PC and NPC guards, the towns and roads could be fairly safe. Bad players could do bad things, and more importantly, evil players could do evil things, but it would be reined in by the game design and by the fact that other players wouldn\'t have to put up with it.
 The tone of the game then depends on the community as a whole, and if the game doesn\'t reward people for antisocial behavior and for simply having more free time than others, the quality of the community should remain relatively high. Most MMORPGS start out with a good community, as athelas noted, but the design of the game pushes the wrong way, and encourages the bad players, which leads to the cycle of rule sanctions & complaints which leads to players leaving in disgust, decimating the original community.

 
 .. Um. Just a thought. LOL.

Keldorn

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« Reply #21 on: November 25, 2002, 09:34:46 am »
Damn! Wish i could say things like that.
m.vanes

cmhitman

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« Reply #22 on: November 25, 2002, 04:41:35 pm »
I only read half
but based on what i did read, I don\'t think your breakdown of the dood essay wasn\'t much different except that you didn\'t hastily add your dislike of the different types of misguided players. basicly you just were saying the same stuff, but then again i only read half

god damn my low attention span!  :)
« Last Edit: November 25, 2002, 04:42:02 pm by cmhitman »
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Vengeance

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« Reply #23 on: November 26, 2002, 06:36:19 am »
Hands down one of the best posts ever on this board, Mantar.  Have you ever considered joining our Rules team?  *beg*beg*  :-)

Very insightful, well written, and thought through from a designer\'s rather than player\'s point of view, which is rare.

Thanks.

- Vengeance

Xandria

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Bravo to Mantar!
« Reply #24 on: November 27, 2002, 05:15:46 am »
Ahh, I loved your awesome post!  It was so very insightful, and well put.  If only I had your skills in writing, I might get a better grade in English...

How I set my timezone:

ln -sf /usr/share/zoneinfo/Antarctica/Davis /etc/localtime

Fiere

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« Reply #25 on: November 27, 2002, 06:00:59 am »
Wow, I\'ll second Vengence\'s request Mantar. Very nicely done.

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BaretteDeBeurre

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« Reply #26 on: November 27, 2002, 02:45:44 pm »
i read all the essay, and i say \'bravo\'
it contains all good advices for designers to minimize \"bad players effect\"
I think that Planeshift\'s designers should read it. It would make it one of best MMORPGs ever.

EDIT: I didn\'t read mantar\'s post. I think that planeshift\'s designers should read it after the essay, then the paper adviced earlier( http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm ). I think all these texts contain all the elements to make the best MMORPG ever, which would finally gather all style of MMORPGs players in a game they all like. That would be fun that the best MMORPG is the only one totally free ^^6
« Last Edit: November 27, 2002, 03:50:22 pm by BaretteDeBeurre »

irago

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this could help
« Reply #27 on: November 30, 2002, 05:40:59 pm »
well, i\'ll try and be less theoretic now... i\'ll just be hypothesysing now, since i haven\'t played any MMORPG as of yet (lack of money). but what might help:

  • reduce the power of guilds. a very negative experience i had from Tibia (a german sorta MMORPG; 2D and free :)) is that the first interaction with another player i had was a lowbie/midbie/highbie (no matter, anyone was better than me at that point) cornering me and putting through the message \'give me all you got or you\'re kill-on-sight\' for my guild. reducing guilds to interest organisations, and/or having them declare a purpose which would be made public; the membership of a guild should be easily determined in-game, and it should be possible to issue complaints against a guild-member who violates it\'s mentality. also, the founding of guild should be limited and allowed only to players who have displayed that they are responsible and possibly good roleplayers (e.g. not-d00ds). it would be a Care Bear (very nice term, hope the one who used it before - i have an abysmal memory - will forgive me this display of plagioatorism) inducing factor, but it would prevent a d00d-or-die society, where people not in a uberman controlled guild would be at a risk of being opressed. maybe not realistic, but relieves quite some tension from the game\'s atmosphere.
  • nclude politics in the game. creating higher-level player structures, to a certain measure moderated by \'authorities\' - approved supervisors or someone of that sort, that stand even above guilds, would allow some control over the player\'s interests. making let\'s say a member of the city council have more real power than the d00d with the vorpal sword would significantly reduce the games attractiveness to them and consequently drive them away. i imagine these organisations as for example city levels with an somewhat independent administration, or the job-groups (permanently sacking an asocial player from the job is quite a logical consequence for unruly actions).
  • a decent law system should be in place (this might be redundant, since it is possible the developers already have something similar in mind; in that case, ignore this point on the list). this might be connected to the previous point. make a city guard that alhough not immortal and one shot slayers, would be ultimately impossible to defeat. this would require scaling the guards to the offenders level, should he be more powerful than they are, but with a minimal power level set quite high to prevent weaker players from trying anything funny; the scaling should be to such a measure that the player would be available to kill one, two or even several of the guards, but it only as many as necessary to flee the city. this would require careful planning of the placing of the guards, but the system could be very functional. this could be connected with a player-run jurisdiction, with characters being judges and so on for those laws, the violation of which that would be too complicated to be adressed by the game system itself. they would have the competences to administer punishment such as fines, temporary banning, or banishment from a city (to this issue: it should be in that case absolutely impossible to penetrate the city gates violently - spawning of guardsmen would be a viable solution). also, a system should be implemented which would prevent the offender from escaping when arrested (handucuffing and the like - no speculations should be allowed as to the possibility of breaking them - noone can do that IRL, and if we admit that the avatars can be superhumanly strong, so can the material used to make the cuffs). so, to summarize things: the system should work in a way as to bang one simple rule through the thickest of skulls - you do something bad, and you WILL face consequences, period.
  • limiting PvP combat is viable, although probably unacceptable for the sake of the desired facsimile realism of a MMORPG. limiting it to arenas or a level span rule would be too much. but berserking should be highly frowned upon, and players should be encouraged to for example create groups to kill a berserking d00d; a kill/loot/city banish punishment is hopefully severe enough to discourage anyone from killing on sight. the functionality of this system would be significantly reinforced by the \'skills, not uber-items\' and \'limited advancement\' policies.
  • civilisation should be in all ways important. all of the more important parts of the game world, e.g. those with an increased player concentration, shuld be controlled by a legal system and equipped with guards. a player who is a persona non grata in any and all cities in the game, after being finally hunted down, should have little else to do than run around naked, without equipment around the wilderness areas, killing monsters which wouldn\'t drop anything of interest to someone who doesn\'t have access to a shop od a place where to process the given material (this time, i am absolutely certain that the developers are implementing this system, but nontheless, i shall post this: most crafts and jobs should be impossible to perform in the wilderness, e.g. outside of the aforementioned cities/villages/etc. the monsters in wilderness areas should in any but the most rare cases drop finished items, or even money, for that purpose, raw processable materials would be quite enough as the material reward - useless, nonetheless of value to a player with the resources of a city at his disposal; i think this adds a very functional piece of realism)
  • to expand on the previous issue: there should be monster with hoards of rare items (although not quite as powerful to be considered uber-artifacts), but they should be impossible to be deferated individually. that would prevent non-social people from getting any excitement from the game after reaching a certain level of power (a very high one, needless to say; penetrating into social structures does take some time, until then, it should be perfectly possible to go more-or-less solo)
  • make magical items very rare, even with the conditions of the skill-focus system. skills should provide the player with at least equal power. it should be possible to kill a twinked-to-oblivion newbie when you know the right way to use the skills they\'ve got. this might be possible to implement because a drastic modification of the combat system would be needed. two \'classes\' of magical items could be included: simple ones, quite common, with a very limited bonus for the player, to the extent of providing the decisive edge in equal battles, or compensating for a minor weakness the player in error commited during advancement. these could be sommonly available or even manufacturable, but the advantages a player equipped fully with such items would get shouldn\'t surpass the ones he would get by gaining a few levels (or maybe even one, depending on how much a \'level\' would mean in powrer terms). widely available should in no way mean widely affordable, and even the manufacture would require going to certain ends to get the necessary components. the higher level items (of artifact class) should give a more significant amount of power, but there should be a different limitation, like possibly the limit of one artifact per player, a few of one in the game altogether, and the impossibility to sell them or give them away
  • ad skills more powerful than items. the gain of skills should be done in a different way that \'kill enough and you get skill points\', or \'click long enough and you\'ll advance\'. these two systems shouldn\'t be eliminated completely, but severely downgraded. skill points are a very functional system, but spending them in some advancement screen isn\'t exactly realistic, or helpful. it should either be limited to a certainsm level in a skill, after which the player would have to join an organisation (i can\'t personally imagine someone who kills puppies and such would be taught crystal magic for example) or find a mentor NPC; or even both, with players mentoring other organisation members (but this might on the other hand turn out to be very frustrating). or as a compromise, being mentored would make skill advancement easier (in terms of skill-point cost) than teaching yourself. performing a skill to advance it shouldn\'t be eliminated, but should be a secondary way of advancing a skill. it also shouldn\'t work like \'use the skill x times and you advance\'. a certain level of randomness should be included: the use of a skill would instead increase the probability of the skill advancing, with a certain maximum probability (10% or even less). the probability would be checked against after each such use of the skill (D&D d% style), adn reset back to zero after gaining a skill point in this fashion. the probability increase would be very small, and inversely proportionate to the current skill level and skill difficulty (normal advancemenmt cost). this would make the skill advancement by using seem like a sort of a christmas present - e.g. it would make a player happy (\'Wee, I got a free level in swords!\'), but it would in no case be a way of gainig significant power per se


also, a few reactions to the previous posts: making the character advance primarily thanks to socializing would limit the game\'s audience, which would be quite undesirable due to the current state of the game (e.g. quite impossible to advertise seriously; no offense, i admire the developers for undergoing such a challenge). everyone enjoys a bit of good\'ole hack\'n\'slash fun once in a while, and i wouldn\'t want to see the project end up limited for a few \'Planeshift geeks\' who find unlimited amusement in chopping lumber, and figuring what to say to an NPC to get a quest clue over and over. the game has the best chance of success if it will provide entertainment for almost anybody (\'cept d00ds, grief players and power-gamers)

Oof, kudos to the one who reads the whole of this, and i hope i didn\'t insult anyone\'s intelligence for advising things which are obvious to someone with at last minimum experience in MMORPGs, which i lack. Most of what i have put in this post comes form experience in MUDs, where to the contrary i have encountered almost none of the problems that have benn described in previous posts in this thread; i merely modified them with consideration of the way i think MMORPGs work

Irago, the eternal newbie

Aduin

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« Reply #28 on: December 01, 2002, 06:01:48 pm »
I think, that the best counter measure for \"d00ds\" is to have a very strong party/guild base. Namely, the uber monster mentioned in the essay shouldn\'t be killable by the d00d. If there are big monsters in PS, then they should be designed to have varying abilities. Give it some spell resistance, some armor, etc. This will make it difficult for an uber-fighter, or an uber-mage to come along and single handedly kill it. You\'ll probably need a little of everything to kill it. I belive it was in a separate thread, but someone mentioned that you\'ll need a rogue to scout ahead, and then plan your tactics, have the mage buff, the healer gets ready, and the fighter tanks. Unfortunately this sounds a lot like the repetative party-camp-kill-loot experience I disliked about EQ, but it has to be done to curb the ammount of power gaming d00ds.

As for guilds, I think they would be very valuable to keeping d00ds down. Clearly, a d00d wont pick a fight with someone if they know they\'re a member of a decent guild. The guild will come after them. Also, trade guilds are essential. Lets say a d00d is irritating to some weapon dealer that is involved in a smithy guild. Word goes out about this, and the d00d is blacklisted from all the merchants in this guild, and probably others as well.

Basically, by making the game more community based, the anti-social d00ds will eliminate themselves.

P.S. wow, nice long posts. Very insightful though Athelas and Mantar. Keep up the good work!

superw3rds

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hehe I fall into that :D
« Reply #29 on: December 01, 2002, 08:49:49 pm »
Still dont get it....Explain in simple language
superw3rds!
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