Thieves

[Sylk]

As a roleplaying aid, Thievery could be very usefull.  Certain quests could only be done by groups with a thief in the party capable of stealing the key from a wondering guard without being caught (or whatever scenario u like to imagine).

The Karma system would be a great tool for overall game balance, not just for thieving.  I think I am very fond of the karma concept.  Kudos to who it was that brought the idea into the discussion (i missed ur name).

On a side note, WOW.  I was gone for turkey vacation and come back to a lotta thought in this thread!

Sylk.

[BaretteDeBeurre]

Guyz, i think that steal should be a skill we could use \"safely\" on PCs and NPCs only at high level(i mean, at low level, you can\'t do it without being caught). Thieves should have to train on monsters before being able to do it on characters. I think that stealing monsters should give, sometimes, items you couldn\'t get another way. I think that not only the victim but also people around should be able to notice the thief stealing someone. If these 3 rules are applied, i think that thieves will mostly steal monsters than characters, if the punishement when you\'ve been caught is bad enough(like taking back what he has stolen plus a little more for the guards and sent to jail a certain online time, dependending of the number of times you\'ve already been caught before)

[Aduin]

Barette, I definately like the idea of leveling up on monsters/npcs. Items that can only be found through stealing, however, I dislike. Realistically, if someone has something you can steal, you can kill them and take it as well. Also, a prime concern is game balance. Giving the thief more power, like this, would be unfair to some other classess. If you put in steal only items, you would have to put in kill only items as well. But then the thief backstabs the monster after stealing from it, and gets both.

One concern I have about npc stealing, is if a thief goes through a part of a dungeon using stealth and such, and steals things off every monster there. Then a group comes through, kills a lot of stuff, and gets nothing for their effort. This could get very frustrating, especially if the monsters are difficult.

As for your idea about \"safely\" stealing when you\'re a high level. If thieves could steal in safety at high levels, then a high level thief would be unstoppable. There will always have to be at least a significant risk to stealing.

Another idea, asside from random odds based solely on skills, could be the ammount of time the thief has spent watching the target. If a thief follows someone arround for a long time, they\'ll have better odds of stealing, but they\'ll also be more likely to be seen by the target. And as your level goes up, you will have to spend less time watching your target. I think it could be a lot of fun trying to follow someone arround the city, while avoiding being seen. Or, for higher level thiefs, they can watch/follow the mark from a greater distance.

Just some thoughts. Keep it up!

[BaretteDeBeurre]

yeah you\'re right when you say that it\'s unfair and unrealistic to be able to steal items you couldn\'t get another way, my mistake

When i say \"safely\", i want to say \"with a chance of not being caught\". And i insist in the fact that people around a steal act should be able to see it too, and react as they wish. With this fact implemented, a stealer should have a good hiding skill to steal a character(that mean he has to level 2 skills).

Don\'t forget that the game isn\'t base on classes but on skills and that everybody can take this skill, so it shouldn\'t be \'more efficient\' than another. I think that stealing a monster should be as hard as killing it, so you shouldn\'t try to steal a creature you wouldn\'t fight. And you could only steal a %(something like 20-25) of its treasure, and stealing an already stolen monsters should already fail(what should warn the monster and attack the thief). I think that a \"move silently\" skill should be used, too, if we want to pass a monster without warning him, and not only \"hiding\". So you could do easy money, but before being able to do it, you have to grow 3 skills.

[Aduin]

Oh, I definately agree there should be a chance of not getting caught, I\'m just saying that the odds should be stacked against the thief.

I hadn\'t really though about the fact that they had to level up several skills. That is a considerable balance in itself looking at it.

I do like the idea of others being able to spot the crime. I don\'t know how it would be implemented exactly, but it does make a thief consider keeping to side streets and not busy marketplace. But then again... in a seriously crowded marketplace, it is far harder to spot a thief. So how exactly would that work?

[BaretteDeBeurre]

dunno, i\'m just giving the idea ^^6
Let\'s think about it together....
perhaps stealing should make an animation of the thief(like his hand going under his victim\'s clothes) that should only be seen by other characters that had enough skill to see the thief doing so.....Like this, the \"spectators\" must not only have the skill to spot steals but must pay attention truely, too.

[Aduin]

Now that idea I like. I don\'t know what the spotter would have to do to call the gaurds, or flag the thief, but it is definately a good idea.

[BaretteDeBeurre]

The spotter can tell, if he wants, the act he have seen(autoscreenshot when you spot a law breking act) to the guards. It should automatically raise the spotted player\'s bounty as it\'s talked about at: http://www.planeshift3d.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=1984&boardid=11&styleid=2

Yeah, great ideas here too, but i wonder if they serve to something....I think that PS designers have other things to do than read players\' hopes of the utopic MMORPG they\'d like to see/play

[Aduin]

Originally posted by BaretteDeBeurre
Yeah, great ideas here too, but i wonder if they serve to something....I think that PS designers have other things to do than read players\' hopes of the utopic MMORPG they\'d like to see/play

I completely disagree. The designers definately read the posts and while the posts may not be exactly what goes into the game, they definately at least consider them. They\'re designing the game for the players, and to do so I\'d think they would have to listen. They can\'t possibly be designing the game for themselves, since it\'s going to be free!

[Monkeys eat peanuts]

I think thieving would add an unique and exciting element to the game but like said it should be balanced too.

I think that stealing from PC\'s should be possible but hard. Obviously you cant steal equipped items one would definatly notice that. But the things in your inventory should also become harder to steal based on:
a) Weight, someone would notice it if his backpack gets 10 kilos lighter for sure.
b) Size, try pulling a piano out of someones backpack/pockets for the heck of it some time.
c)Value, if i had just found something incredible valuable he would watch it 24/7 and feel to see if it\'s still there.

So your uber impaler sword which is prolly rather big and heavy and veeeerry valuable would be impossible to jack (if you weren\'t already wearing it equipped)

And i like the justice team thing suggested as well they would hunt them downand bring them to justice.

Also in morrowind when you get arrested all stolen gear is removed from your inventory (this would involve a pretty tricky owner-system tho :/ ) So if you go around thieving for all ur supergear and get arrested you lose everything with you that was ever stolen which for a hardcore thief (like i was in morrowind) that would suck pretty bad losing all of your good gear. PLus maybe a bonus fine on top of that

And as for breaking in to people\'s houses this should be even harder. But if you make like a bank where people can store their most valuable items (limited storage place and a fee every time you access it) and they would just keep decent gear in their homes that wouldnt be too bad and they can always get better locks when they grow richer/better. Maybe even pking ability inside your house (trespassers will be shot) and gaurds patrolling and arresting people who are breaking in.

Further people who steal should lose align/karma even if they aren\'t caught. Because if you brag about it in taverns and such or are seen but not reported/caught you get a certain reputation too.

[Vengeance]

The problem with all these balancing systems is that if you make it hard enough/punished enough to really deter people, then what\'s the point of having the feature in the first place?  If you don\'t, then it will be overused.

There is no way to win...

- Venge

[Fiere]

Its true, no matter how hard the devs tried to balance PvP pickpocketing,there would be a lot of discontent on both sides of players:thieves and non-thieves.

I really think it would be more interesting to implement thieving skills Indiana Jones style, as a method for breaking and entering in dungeons. They could pick the NPC pockets for keys, passwords and floorplans. They could pick the dungeon gate locks and undo the traps waiting for them .

All these things would make a thieves skills worthwhile  AND make the thief themself appealing as a party/groupmember to other players instead of a potential menace.

[Aduin]

Vengeance, the balance is hard to find, but it exists. In gambling, the odds are stacked against you, yet people still flood casinos for the chance of winning. Stealing should be the same way. Make it so you could get a lot, but if you keep it up you\'re guarenteed to loose in the long run. I agree with Fiere, that the majority of stealing should be geared towards dungeon raids, and npc stealing, but i think it should be possible for a thief to try their luck on a pc. Maybe get something, more likely loose something. It\'s a risk, but if the odds aren\'t too grossly disproportional, there will still be a number of people willing to try.

[Vengeance]

I agree with you there, Fiere, but I would call those Rogue skills as opposed to Thief skills...

But then, I\'m just a humble coder and not a Rules or RPG expert. :-)

- V

[Fiere]

Potatoe,patahtoe I guess I often say thief because I prefer the skills of stealing and trapsetting/breaking to the assasin role rogues get lumped into.