Author Topic: Removal of focus on combat.  (Read 3061 times)

Niavard

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Removal of focus on combat.
« on: October 31, 2005, 01:57:57 pm »
It has always seemed odd, unrealistic stupid and un-rpish to me that in many games enemies were a resource of power rather than a problem, I believe this can be avoided by doing three simple things.

First and most obvious is a high punishment for dying, if the Death Realm is painful enough and takes enough time to get out of (preferably RL days), it might be enough.

Second is Making combat give you very little in terms money when compared to crafting, and very little of combat experience when compared to sparring or training (with the time the deaths will take taken into acount).

Third, and most important is making it combat extremly risky, this is best done by making even the most resilient of warriors go down after three, at most four hits (this should probably be reserved for Krans and Ynwns), and making normal people go down after one or two, and make the chance to hit slim, this way, with a little bit of bad luck an experienced swordsman can be brought down by an untrained newcomer (this should also discourage constant challengeing of the newcomers, since even the most experienced of warriors should have a, say 20% chance of losing instead of the 0.0000001% chance most games have between even short intervals of experience).
But won\'t this make ranged combat overpowered? make it so that most objects launched by various bows and crossbows often miss and even more often can be absorbed by even light armors, and make it so that spells usually either miss, backfire or are resisted.

My third point in short: have combat consist of mostly dodging/absorbing blows with your armor/parrying/resisting spells/missing, but make it so that a few hits can take down even very resilient krans or ynwns, making combat depend a Great bit on luck thus making it so that no one can fight safely even against a much weaker opponent.

If we do all this, combat will be so risky and unrewarding that people will try to avoid it most of the time, making the stalacite much more realistic and in my opinion rp friendly.
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Draklar

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« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2005, 02:08:25 pm »
1st point: I think playing PlaneShift should be fun. Being thrown into Death Realm for few days, because you got lagged in a critical moment doesn\'t stand in my dictionary as \'fun\'.

2nd point: Gaining more money out of crafting is probably how it\'s going to be in PlaneShift. Gaining more experience out of training isn\'t realistic.

3rd point: Unexperienced fighter shouldn\'t have any chances in defeating an experienced fighter. Again, realism.
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Niavard

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« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2005, 02:29:14 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Draklar
3rd point: Unexperienced fighter shouldn\'t have any chances in defeating an experienced fighter. Again, realism.


Where did you get this from? I see no reason why experienced fighters always should defeat less experienced warriors, no matter the amount of luck involved, surely even experienced warriors can make a mistake or unexperienced warriors get a lucky hit, training should help one\'s probabilities of succes, never make sure one always win.

Source, please?
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Draklar

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« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2005, 02:32:36 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Niavard
Quote
Originally posted by Draklar
3rd point: Unexperienced fighter shouldn\'t have any chances in defeating an experienced fighter. Again, realism.


Where did you get this from? I see no reason why experienced fighters always should defeat less experienced warriors, no matter the amount of luck involved, surely even experienced warriors can make a mistake or unexperienced warriors get a lucky hit, training should help one\'s probabilities of succes, never make sure one always win.

Source, please?
From my real life experience. Despise being semi-experienced, I still stand absolutely no chance against the well experienced warriors in my knighthood...
And luck doesn\'t really have much to say when you are being showered with blows.
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Nikodemus

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« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2005, 04:40:42 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Niavard
Third, and most important is making it combat extremly risky, this is best done by making even the most resilient of warriors go down after three, at most four hits (this should probably be reserved for Krans and Ynwns), and making normal people go down after one or two, and make the chance to hit slim, this way, with a little bit of bad luck an experienced swordsman can be brought down by an untrained newcomer (this should also discourage constant challengeing of the newcomers, since even the most experienced of warriors should have a, say 20% chance of losing instead of the 0.0000001% chance most games have between even short intervals of experience).
But won\'t this make ranged combat overpowered? make it so that most objects launched by various bows and crossbows often miss and even more often can be absorbed by even light armors, and make it so that spells usually either miss, backfire or are resisted.

My third point in short: have combat consist of mostly dodging/absorbing blows with your armor/parrying/resisting spells/missing, but make it so that a few hits can take down even very resilient krans or ynwns, making combat depend a Great bit on luck thus making it so that no one can fight safely even against a much weaker opponent.

Fights don\'t end after 2 seconds. Blows are parried and bounce from armor many times before the final deadly blow. It is hard to implement this in online game due to lag (avarage 0,5sec in ps) and lack all the feelings what you have in real.
That is why we have HP - hit points Everytime they decrease, you got hit in a way that it give advatage to your opponent. Not every hit is deadly, but if your HP drop below 0, your opponent got through your whole defence, armor and nothing can save you.

But that is just my theory and maybe someone know somethink more.

I propose somethink else, more realistic.
1) Make enemies of the same type vary in strenght and skills.  Every time a NPC spawn, it maybe be weak, but also really strong. So there are no two same gladiators or rogues, tefusangs and grendols.
2) NPCs should move and run effectively after the  one who tried to attack. And it isn\'t always possible to run away
3) NPCs should spawn in areas, not points
4) NPCs should have a lot better AI

This makes killing harder, but we have to wait a long time before it happen



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Niavard

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« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2005, 06:10:07 pm »
@Nikodemus: My goal was not to make combat hard which is all your idea does (it is still a resource), but to make it a problem rather than the resource right now...

Also, I did not suggest removing a hp based system, just balancing it so that a few hits usually empty ones hp, thus making the system depend much more than luck.

@Draklar: I suppose that you know alot more than me about medieval Combat then, so I suppose this system is unrealistic if it is impossible to beat a superior regardless how many times you try... /me wanders off to think of another way to discourage combat.

*raises a white flag*
« Last Edit: October 31, 2005, 06:45:43 pm by Niavard »
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zanzibar

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« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2005, 07:04:56 pm »
Once medium and plated armour is in the game, then we can worry about ballance issues.  I think a one-hit-kill is entirely realistic against an unarmoured foe.
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Nikodemus

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« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2005, 07:26:52 pm »
as i told, everytime you loose hp, you aren\'t critically hit and drop dead.



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Askr

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« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2005, 07:27:44 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
Once medium and plated armour is in the game, then we can worry about ballance issues.  I think a one-hit-kill is entirely realistic against an unarmoured foe.


One-hit-kills are never realistic in games that have no mechanics for specific techniques.  To say that a trained warrior of any sort will fall from a single blow is far too simplistic.  Different weapons, methods of attacks, and personal preferences to techniques all play a major roll in the amount (and type) of damage dealt from a blow.

Now in a game such as PS where there are \'target blows\' generated, then one-hit-kills are possible and should be likely  in certain situations.  For instance, the \"rogue hits you in head for ....\" should probably be fatal. :)  On the other hand the less random \"rogue hits you in leg ....\" torso, arm, hand, etc in all likelihood would not be fatal.

A sword strike landing flat will do little damage.  Likewise a glancing hammer blow will not be sufficient to be fatal.  A sword strike on edge will do far more damage, but unless it lands on the head or enters the kneck it is unlikely to be fatal as well.  A stabbing action again will do more damage to vital organs, but without being followed by a proper killing technique (such as turning the blade, etc) it is unlikely to be fatal.  

Most cuts in combat due to slashing techniques are superficial, particularly as regards a \'medieval fantasy setting\'.  Most hacking, except on exposed skin, results in more damage from broken bones then from the actual blade\'s edge.
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zanzibar

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« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2005, 07:57:49 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Nikodemus
as i told, everytime you loose hp, you aren\'t critically hit and drop dead.


I\'m not suggesting that.  I\'m saying that if you\'re unarmoured, you should expect to die from a single well-placed hit from a blade.


Quote
Originally posted by Askr
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
Once medium and plated armour is in the game, then we can worry about ballance issues.  I think a one-hit-kill is entirely realistic against an unarmoured foe.


One-hit-kills are never realistic in games that have no mechanics for specific techniques.  To say that a trained warrior of any sort will fall from a single blow is far too simplistic.  Different weapons, methods of attacks, and personal preferences to techniques all play a major roll in the amount (and type) of damage dealt from a blow.

Now in a game such as PS where there are \'target blows\' generated, then one-hit-kills are possible and should be likely  in certain situations.  For instance, the \"rogue hits you in head for ....\" should probably be fatal. :)  On the other hand the less random \"rogue hits you in leg ....\" torso, arm, hand, etc in all likelihood would not be fatal.

A sword strike landing flat will do little damage.  Likewise a glancing hammer blow will not be sufficient to be fatal.  A sword strike on edge will do far more damage, but unless it lands on the head or enters the kneck it is unlikely to be fatal as well.  A stabbing action again will do more damage to vital organs, but without being followed by a proper killing technique (such as turning the blade, etc) it is unlikely to be fatal.  

Most cuts in combat due to slashing techniques are superficial, particularly as regards a \'medieval fantasy setting\'.  Most hacking, except on exposed skin, results in more damage from broken bones then from the actual blade\'s edge.



Ok, then what would you change with the current system?
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Nikodemus

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« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2005, 09:13:55 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
I\'m not suggesting that.  I\'m saying that if you\'re unarmoured, you should expect to die from a single well-placed hit from a blade.

And how are you going to decide when the single well-placed hit from a blade will happen?



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Draklar

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« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2005, 09:17:04 pm »
I think the question is when it wouldn\'t happen.
Since those should happen on a regular basis, unless something stops them. And here you decide what.
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zanzibar

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« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2005, 10:27:24 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Nikodemus
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
I\'m not suggesting that.  I\'m saying that if you\'re unarmoured, you should expect to die from a single well-placed hit from a blade.

And how are you going to decide when the single well-placed hit from a blade will happen?



Is this a real question?  Dodging, parrying skill, how good the other guy is with the weapon, and so on.
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Nikodemus

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« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2005, 11:44:44 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
Is this a real question?  Dodging, parrying skill, how good the other guy is with the weapon, and so on.

Yes, it is a serious question.
So are you proposing that you press /attack, your opponent also press /attack. Then you both look at system messages about parrying, dodging and bounced of armor hits till one of you hit the other one and kill him instantly?
So, why would we need HP?
That is why i wrote what i think about function of hit points.
One is: you can try to retreat if you see that your opponent is going too easly through your defence.

Draklar: I agree that those should happen on a regular basis, but still you cant exactly say how regual, it is approximation.
And they don\'t happen when somethink stop them, as you said.
And to clarify things and see what exactly you think:  
Hit points in my theory serve exactly part of this purpose. Also, there are no hits which take all of the hp, because hp aren\'t health points, but hit points.



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Draklar

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« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2005, 12:34:54 am »
Look at WFRP 2nd Ed system. Lots of parrying/blocking/dodging and 1-3 hit kills. Unless you wear medium or heavy armour. That\'s how it should be.
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