Removal of focus on combat.

[Nikodemus]

I have been playing only first edition, it is the only one i played. Now if i play, it is without statisctics.
When I was fighting with my friends on pseudo swords, it was taking a lot blows before one of us hit the other in body.
So to repeat again. Hit points purpose is partially this.

[zanzibar]

Hmm.... I don\'t see hit points as representing some sort of abstract concept like that which encompasses not only physical health, but also overall defense.  I really see HP purely in terms of how injured you are.

[Nikodemus]

So how will you explain the fact one person have 60hp and the other 180hp ? Where the first person may be stabbed into stomach 1 times and the seconds 3?
Given all the reasons you still say no?
Give me a better explanation which would give better feeling what is happening in the middle of fight.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Nikodemus
So how will you explain the fact one person have 60hp and the other 180hp ? Where the first person may be stabbed into stomach 1 times and the seconds 3?
Given all the reasons you still say no?
Give me a better explanation which would give better feeling what is happening in the middle of fight.

Physical health?  I\'m pretty sure a Kran has more constitution than a Nolthir.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Nikodemus
I have been playing only first edition, it is the only one i played. Now if i play, it is without statisctics.
When I was fighting with my friends on pseudo swords, it was taking a lot blows before one of us hit the other in body.
So to repeat again. Hit points purpose is partially this.

Edit: Got it wrong.
Did you have any proper training before doing that?
It doesn\'t take many swings to hit someone, unless you don\'t know how to fight (and for example swing at mid-air or at shield, or at sword)

[Nikodemus]

Originally posted by zanzibar
Physical health?  I\'m pretty sure a Kran has more constitution than a Nolthir.

Of course, that must be that exact situation what i meant. What else?...
Imagine there is much more of posibilities, but you are Zanzibar and Zanzibar won\'t choose the worst example to explain, but the most simple.
Gues what? I mean\'t two Nolthirs, one with 60 and second with 180

Draklar: No, i gues i didn\'t. We was training with nobody experienced in that for about a week.
So i don\'t really know how much blows do need two very well trained warriors, so that one of them deal the critical hit.
But if i had to make approximation, I\'d say it is how it is currently when two people fight with use of normal weapons and each has max sword skill and max hp.

/me is going sleeping

[zanzibar]

If that nolthir has as much HP as a kran.... then that nolthir has as much HP as a kran.  Must be some nolthir.

[james brown]

 the topic of combat is very difficult to discuss....
everyone has many different ideas.. and many different life experiences...

And discussing a combat between \"experienced\" , and \"unexperienced\" person can aslo be difficult.

Is the experienced guy a man who spent 20yrs of his life sword fighting, and the unexperienced guy just pickup a sword last night and wanted to see how to use it?
in this case outcome is pretty obvious...  unless our \'master\' was asleep at the time of the fight.

in many cases soldiers were called \"experienced\" or veteran after surviving just one battle. this clearly doesnt make them 100,000 times stronger than an \"unexperienced\" opponent.

From personal experience of some 17yrs of martial arts training (karate, kendo). A true begginer still has a small ( and i mean small) chance of defeating a well trained person. That chance is mostly dependent on his physical/mental attributes. A 6\"6\' 130 kg mountain of muscle, who happens to be agile as a cat, could easily pose a threat to even a well trained man of say 5\"11\' and 80kg. Simple physics will tell you that. (this refers to unarmed combat mostly).
presence of a weapon favours training more of course, but physical attributes should not be underestimated.

Simple example.... Germanic tribesman were more than a match for Roman legionares in 1 v 1 combat despite the Roman\'s superior training and technology, simply due to difference in strenght, size etc...

While i dont claim to have the answers, i think its something to think about.

Cheers

[Askr]

Originally posted by zanzibar

Originally posted by Nikodemus
as i told, everytime you loose hp, you aren\'t critically hit and drop dead.

I\'m not suggesting that.  I\'m saying that if you\'re unarmoured, you should expect to die from a single well-placed hit from a blade.

Well-placed hits are not as easy to come by as one might think.  Unless of course your opponent is already incapable of movement for some reason.    No one is going to make it easy for the opponent.

Ok, then what would you change with the current system?

I\'m not sure I would change anything at the moment.  I haven\'t found the combat system all that lacking.  It serves its purpose.  Perhaps the question is, what do you want changed?

I think PS has the right idea with the combat system, I just don\'t think everything is implemented.  Your combat ability is influenced by skill, abilities (str and agi for striking, etc, and stamina for conditioning, will for that ever ellusive thing referred to as \"heart\" by fighters) and all of that is pitted against the same traits of your opponent.  Different attributes and skills give different advantages and disadvantages, and a skilled fighter can manipulate those advantages and disadvantages as necessary.

[Askr]

I think most people tend to think of successful attacks as always being clean hits.  In combat situations, particularly when weapons larger than knives are being used, there are rarely clean hits.  Even if you are outskilled, you will still block or evade to some degree the attacks coming at you.  Training helps to improve one\'s ability to block and evade attacks, while improving your ability to strike in a way that makes it more difficult for your opponent to block or evade your attacks.  No one is perfect, and therefore no one can successfully block every blow.  The result is being hit for non-fatal damage.  The blow is partially blocked, but the attack still penetrates the defense.  Or the blow is partially evaded, but not completely.  You end up with cuts, bruises, broken bones, etc, but you are not dead.... yet.  If you end up with enough cuts and bruises, etc, your body will shut down and you will die -- loss of blood, trauma, shock, whatever you want to attribute it to.

Skill and technique should always give you an edge.  Then again so does agility, strength, and conditioning.  Sometimes, one gives more of an edge than the other -- depending upon how it is used.  Many trained fighters have fallen to inexperienced fighters because the inexperienced fighter overwhelmed the trained fighter, therefore nullifying his skills and techniques.  It happens in combat sports all the time -- the new guy comes out fists flying and doesn\'t stop until the far more experienced and trained MA is unconscious or has submitted.    It becomes a matter of numbers, the trained fighter with all his technique and skill just can\'t block or evade all the blows of the less experienced-more aggressive fighter.

[Zan]

Dying shouldn\'t be too big of a punishment since I die more often because of fall damage or lag than of actual combat. Of course it should still be a bad thing but if I hear all those people complaining the set spawn points alone are already bad enough .. imagine being brought back all the way to the spawn when Yliakum gets closer to its intended size. I think that \'ll make most people be wary of dying.

I agree completely that crafting should make you a lot more money than fighting, unless you are being recruited in an official fighting force with salaries maybe. Hunters should get little money but still play a role in acquiring various materials for our crafters.

As for the whole argument about combat .. it\'s my opinion that in medieval combat it is mainly about the equipment, not so much the training.

In general I think that we shouldn\'t be making combat less important than it is now, I like it how it is. We should be making other things at least just as important than combat or more important though. Starting with crafting but I\'m confident the devs already know this and will make sure it happens soon (tm).

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Zan
As for the whole argument about combat .. it\'s my opinion that in medieval combat it is mainly about the equipment, not so much the training.

I try to imagine myself going in full plate armour, armed with a well made longsword and wooden, light shield into one of the summer battles... And don\'t really see myself surviving for long x.x

But no, I\'ve seen people fighting and using exactly same weapons. Training is the most important factor.

[Zan]

Of course in that case it is. If everyone is equiped equally well it is a matter of who had the most training or has the most luck. In battles not everyone tends to have the same equipment though .. usually you had drafted peasants who armed themselves with whatever they could get their hands on and then there are the professional knights with their heavy armor, sturdy shields and shiny longswords on horseback. The poor peasies wouldn\'t stand much of a chance surviving a heavy cavalry charge no matter how trained they are.

Of course it is always a matter of equipment, training and luck, which is more important differs from situation to situation but I do get the initial point. The first two are usually represented pretty decently in games where as the luck factor is rarely ever present.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Zan
Of course in that case it is. If everyone is equiped equally well it is a matter of who had the most training or has the most luck. In battles not everyone tends to have the same equipment though .. usually you had drafted peasants who armed themselves with whatever they could get their hands on and then there are the professional knights with their heavy armor, sturdy shields and shiny longswords on horseback. The poor peasies wouldn\'t stand much of a chance surviving a heavy cavalry charge no matter how trained they are.

If the knights weren\'t trained, they would fall off their horses and couldn\'t stand up due to the heavy armour. While the peasants would just jab them to death.

Originally posted by Zan
Of course it is always a matter of equipment, training and luck, which is more important differs from situation to situation but I do get the initial point. The first two are usually represented pretty decently in games where as the luck factor is rarely ever present.

There\'s no luck factor. There\'s no luck in parrying blows, you have to learn to foresee your opponent\'s moves. There\'s no luck in dealing powerful blows, you have to learn to surpass your opponent\'s defense (either with intelligence, or sheer agression... or best combination of both). Plus the ability to seek for weak points in one\'s armour, remaining cool-headed, ability to use your opponent\'s moves against himself, etc...

[james brown]

If the knights weren\'t trained, they would fall off their horses and couldn\'t stand up due to the heavy armour. While the peasants would just jab them to death.

not really a good example....

if the knights werent trained they wouldnt be on the horse and in armour in the first place....
from memory suit of plate n a war horse was fairly pricey

yes training is very important, and so are you strenght, agility, endurance, level headness ect (these attributes are developed in training of course).

But if my memory serves me correct a short time before the battle of hastings, a viking (or danish , cant remember) army invaded england, and were defeated when caught off guard (they only had time to grab their swords n shields) by a pressing english army.
Despite being very tired the english won (so in this case equipment did play a decisive role in the battle).

But i think main point is that... An equally equipped person with better training will not ALWAYS win.
He may win a lot more often... of course (depanding of the difference in training).

Also we seem to have this romantic image of a 90yo master still beating the hell out of a bunch of 20yo gorrilas. Its a nice though... but in reality it just doeant happen.

But imo training >> equipment.. unless its  stix vs plate mail