Removal of focus on combat.

[Zan]

Based on my 7+ years of first hand martial arts experience I will have to completely disagree about there being no luck factor. Honestly I can\'t even understand how you could say luck plays no part in combat when even the smallest child should know better. I\'m not the kind of person that likes to be absolute in anything, usually I try to keep an openminded perspective and see both ends of a discussion, understand both points. You are definitely a great roleplayer and know a lot, a whole lot but I think you\'re way off base here. You seem to be idealizing the concept of training and experience and making it into something more than it really is. Training is everything we have control over but in life we don\'t have control over everything and on the battlefield or in a duel that counts just as much. A whole lot of factors we cannot control or turn to our advantage no matter the ammount of training we had, I\'m sure you can all imagine some. Those factors are put into the equasion of life as the luck factor. With everything we do luck plays a role and better training might reduce some of those luck factors but in a fight, where things can change in fragments of a second, it will always play a significant role.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by james brown
If the knights weren\'t trained, they would fall off their horses and couldn\'t stand up due to the heavy armour. While the peasants would just jab them to death.

not really a good example....

if the knights werent trained they wouldnt be on the horse and in armour in the first place....
from memory suit of plate n a war horse was fairly pricey :)

Umm... The point of this discussion was whether equipment is more important than training. So I gave example of what equipment is without training.

For a further example, experienced warrior with staff will defeat unexperienced warrior in full plate, longsword and wooded shield. With ease.

Originally posted by james brown
But if my memory serves me correct a short time before the battle of hastings, a viking (or danish , cant remember) army invaded england, and were defeated when caught off guard (they only had time to grab their swords n shields) by a pressing english army.
Despite being very tired the english won (so in this case equipment did play a decisive role in the battle).

1) When fighting potential is near equal, equipment will decide about outcome of fight. That doesn\'t prove equipment is more important.
2) Being caught off-guard reduces chances of winning due to the chaos.

Originally posted by james brown
But imo training >> equipment.. unless its  stix vs plate mail ;)

You can just disarm unexperienced warrior with one of the sticks and use his weapon to defeat him ;)


Zan: I don\'t know how it is in martial arts since I don\'t train them, but watching knight duels and training in such fighting, I\'ve seen luck to hold minor importance over anything.
For example, knowing skills of particular warriors, I could foretell outcome of the duels.
Luck is something that appears only when unexperienced warrior sends some random blows, hoping that one of them will actually do something.
\"Luck\" very often is also just a faulty move of your opponent. Not quite real luck.
But generally about the 7 years thing, I\'d much rather hear actual examples. Argumentum ad verecundiam is a logical fallacy :<

Edit:
Argumentum ad vanitatem is also :P
Not saying you used them on purpose, but still might be something you\'d want to avoid ;)

[Suno_Regin]

Basically, these rules are taken from all of the other games that I despised, impliment a newbie taking down me and reaping 50 duel points and I\'m quitting...I will not be taken down by a novice, and thats final >.>

[shorty13]

If this was to be done, we need another source of money and PP.  This could be done through a very large quest system, with quests giving a lot of reward and PP.  Also, since you still need a way after all quests completed, some other way must be devised.

[Zan]

Originally posted by Draklar
Zan:
But generally about the 7 years thing, I\'d much rather hear actual examples. Argumentum ad verecundiam is a logical fallacy :<

Edit:
Argumentum ad vanitatem is also
Not saying you used them on purpose, but still might be something you\'d want to avoid

Yes I know saying that was something most people would ignore at best and probably just laugh at. Like I said I normally dislike talking like that but I was tired at the moment, too tired to carefully pick my words and arguments for something that is so blatantly obvious to me. I honestly don\'t care what people think about my \"7 years of experience\" and don\'t feel much for going over my university logic classes for every argument on here. What I said was meant to show I do know what I\'m talking about but of course since neither of us know eachother personally every mention of \'experience\' can be questioned.

You say you have experience in knight duels, etc. which I assume are being held on roleplaying events and medieval fairs, so could they be compared to a form of stage fighting more than actual combat? In that case I can understand where you\'re coming from much better.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Zan
You say you have experience in knight duels, etc. which I assume are being held on roleplaying events and medieval fairs, so could they be compared to a form of stage fighting more than actual combat? In that case I can understand where you\'re coming from much better.

Umm... It\'s mostly duels (due to there being more tournaments), but there are also few annual battles going on in the season. Notably battle of Grunwald, or Jomsborg\'s viking festival.

[Zan]

This is off topic but I wish we had that kind of things around here ...

Anyway I think our different views have to do with the different approach to combat.

[james brown]

LOL... they really ought to teach sarcasm as a subject in high schools around the world....(not everything said i meant to be taken literally ... sheesh use some imagination)    O.o


 i was never saying that equipment is more important than training .... just that every factor counts in a battle.

Quote:
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Basically, these rules are taken from all of the other games that I despised, impliment a newbie taking down me and reaping 50 duel points and I\'m quitting...I will not be taken down by a novice, and thats final >.>
------------------------------------------------------------------------

So y bother with combat system.... just compare the levels and if your level > opponents you win no fighting needed..

perhaps rethink why you want to play this game

[derwoodly]

When watching old Xena reruns I notice that she kicks butt reguardless of weather she is wearing a silk nighty or her leather \"battle\" armor.   Not realistic, but it is common for the gendra (sp?).

My hope is that training and atributes are weighted heavier than equipment.  I would like PS characters to closer to the fictional fantasy movies than the current video game style that is the norm.  Most other games the equipement at least doubles the power of your character.  Heh, in some cases it is much more like 10x.  This much focus on eqipment takes away from role playing in my humble opinion.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by james brown
LOL... they really ought to teach sarcasm as a subject in high schools around the world....(not everything said i meant to be taken literally ... sheesh use some imagination)    O.o

Indeed. If they taught that in schools, you\'d realise what you said wasn\'t really a sarcasm :P

derwoodly: Yeah, I agree. How much fiction movies might be... fiction. They\'re still better than the hack&slash environment generated by the new games.

[derwoodly]

I am on your side on this one.  At least I think I am.  I would prefer a system that would allow a warrior with a high skill level to be able to defend him or herself with a rusty sword.  I dislike the a system that makes a warrior without a complete set of \"enchanted by the Gods\" armor a gimp, or getting your \"arse\" handed to you because you are forced to fight with a normal steel sword instead of \"Excaliber\".  I would just prefer more DnD and less Diablo.

[james brown]

O.O

u mean dont want weapons to tranform a first grader into an invincible engine of destruction? where is the fun???

we all know that in real world those who actually work hard and play by the rules never get anywhere.....
only luck (whether or not you are born into a multimillion dolla empire) makes a difference....

with this in mind current weapon system is very realistic..  >.<

[dying_inside]

uh ? common sense ?  if a man with  little  experiance of how to wield a  sword thrust a blade at a knight or trained  fighter  that  man would go down.  it would take a huge amount of luck for  this   untrained person to kill a professional.  

and training would not give you more cexperiance than the real thing.  training is one thing, doing that  for real is quite another.  in ANYTHING.  

the death realm is going to be hard, very hard to get out of when it is finished anyway. most likly players will have to  run from anything they find lurking there than chopping it up.  

agreed that the focus on fighting should be toines down a little but these are completly unrealistic idea\'s.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by dying_inside
the death realm is going to be hard, very hard to get out of when it is finished anyway. most likly players will have to  run from anything they find lurking there than chopping it up.  

PIT MONSTERS \\m/  (O.o)  \\m/



\"Fred, did you hear that?  Fred?  Fred!\"

[Draklar]

Originally posted by james brown
we all know that in real world those who actually work hard and play by the rules never get anywhere.....
only luck (whether or not you are born into a multimillion dolla empire) makes a difference....

Uhm... You state earning money and fighting as things that work on same basis? o.o

That\'s not how it works...