multilanguage-based commands project

[Ethan]

Hi,
This come from a chat on #planeshift.
A part of the community would like to have the chat-commands in their local language. I think this translation will happen even if not officially supported by planeshift\'s devs but It would be better in order to not create a fork, to create a multilanguage-based commands project officialy supported.
We do not require planeshift\'s devs help, we will create a special team for this project.
The aim of this project is to change the languages of the commands but we are agree that all chat in PS should be in english (the official and unique language of PS). Sadly, it is true that this project may lead to creat sub-communities with differents language.

We would like your feedback on this project\'s idea.

Ethan


If this project is accepted, we would be pleased to have a special sub-forum for our project in order to not hugely expand this one. Why we would like to use this forum? Because this project should be like PS : international and open to all.

[Heydulf]

i think actually there _are_ communities for languages other than english already.
as i mentioned in the irc-session i will try to help as much as i can.
the idea is *not* to split up the community, but there are quite many people in the game talking in their own language.

[Ethan]

I forgot to add this point :
This project will also try to better organize the commands system.
And to write a documentation.

[DaveG]

Support for loading the GUI and aliasing the commands into multiple languages has been planned for a while.  Unfortunately, it\'s not a simple thing to add.  Though I totally agree, one should be able to control their computer using whichever language they choose.

I would also have to agree that English needs to be mandatory for broadcasted (not tells) chatting in-game.  If we want one coherent world, we need one language.


English is the most used (though, Mandarin is more common as a first language), especially on the Internet.  At some point this dumb little planet is going to have to pick a freakin\' language, and start merging the good parts of the others into it.  English seems to be good at absorbing parts of others in place of deficient parts of it self, so it seems to be a good choice.  It\'s about the only one that allows change.  Japanese allows a massive amount of change as well, but usually by adding English words, nowadays.  (There\'s no coincidence that the 2 candidates are both from the top 2 technological powers...)  Honestly, I don\'t care what language it is; whatever it becomes would not resemble its base much.  A large amount of the problems on this little blue speck are the result of feeling indifferent to those who are different, and getting rid of the main arbitrary difference would be a nice start.  (Arguments that language affects culture are valid, but if your culture is entirely dependent on the language it uses it\'s already screwed...  All cultures change; deal with it.)

[Drey]

the thing with making other language things is that, people will still have to speak english in the end unless they are never going to use public chat... im not sure if thats a written rule but ive been told to enforce it anyway so... changing the language of things seems like pointless effort to me. but hey... waste/spend your time how you see fit

[lanser]

Originally posted by DaveG
 (There\'s no coincidence that the 2 candidates are both from the top 2 technological powers...)

Yay England back where we belong on top!

But seriously I agree with DaveG\'s rant if we all want to get on the best way would be to speak the same language, however if the EU can\'t decide (and currently has 3 main languages) and spends a fortune translating legislative documents in to over 20 languages, then what chance has the rest of the world!

As a footnote if the chinese continue teaching English at there current rate it will be the most widely spoken  within the next 10 years.

[Bereror]

I can already imagine a question on the help channel:

How can I open the help window?

And an answer from the advisor:

Try one of the following commands: /help, /hilfe, /aide, /aiuto, /ayuda, /apua, /hjelp

And then:

None is working. I get \"Pesaroso.  Comando desconhecido (uso /ajuda)\"

[Leion]

Don\'t want to dissapoint but english is only 3rd. 2nd is spanish

[Ethan]

So the command is /ajuda and I don\'t know this language. About the client behaviour, I haven\'t yet thought about i.e. should the chat manager be able to understand only one language, one language+english or all language at the same time?

the thing with making other language things is that, people will still have to speak english in the end unless they are never going to use public chat... im not sure if thats a written rule but ive been told to enforce it anyway so... changing the language of things seems like pointless effort to me. but hey... waste/spend your time how you see fit

That is a good a point but the project will also try to create a better implementation of the commands system and will have first to write documentations on how the current system is workindg, how we change to change, how will the new system work.... *
So this project will not be so useless even if the language used it-self would not matter a lot. It seems to be the first sub-project in PS and I hope this will lead to the fact that more people will contribute to PS developpement eg code, art, game\'s documentation ( http://www.ps-mc.com/  advisor heaven, whish list, quotes database...)...

* Sadly, PS\'code is not very well documented, this project could be also the beginning of a documentation project... (anyone interested?) A documentation is really needed but I know this is hard to have people who know coding and documentating and who are willing to do this...

[DaveG]

Well, if someone asks for what the help command is, and they\'re told \"/help\", it\'d work.  If they also want to type it in their native language, that would work too.  The idea is to give choices.

Ethan:
PlaneShift Documentation

[Fellon]

What Dave said is my opinion, too, but I don\'t think that the other things are something to worry about yet, because we haven\'t even tried.
No doubt that english still is, and will be the only language in the chat.

And I can\'t see, that there are sub-comminities, who don\'t interact with others, because there are none. I don\'t think you can foresee what happens exactly, it hasn\'t been done yet, so why don\'t you just give it a try, there are many people who would work on it, and all of them know what Planeshift is about.

I think the community benefits from users, who like the game and would help, but if there are not very good in english they surly get better by the time, because you learn it best, when you are using it.
But for those people it would be easier to get an entry to the game, if they have the chance to use it in their native language, just to see how the game works in the beginning.

I hope everybody sees my point, my english isn\'t the best, too.

[lynx_lupo]

I don\'t think it\'d be possible or plausible to have multiple language choices at the same time, you\'d have to not only maintain the translations, but since it\'s all xml, the whole dataset (unless the translation is shorter or equal to the original, when you don\'t have to resize the widgets).

And rather than trying to translate it, just improve the usability. If a game isn\'t intuitive, it isn\'t much fun, now is it? There should be no need to know any commands at all (reminds me of linux: console vs gui debates).

OT:
I\'ve linked all the docs I know of:
PlaneShift Documentation

[Fellon]

Originally posted by lynx_lupo
... If a game isn\'t intuitive, it isn\'t much fun, now is it?...

So it is for people, who are not native english? I don\'t think so.

I think it is possible to try, and the difficulty is to find a way to make the game localized, but intuitive. And there are many who would just start working on it, if the community would accept it.

[Heydulf]

lynx_lupo: you are right, it is of course not so easy to translate the game into multiple languages. but i think it is a blocker for some users to play the game if it is not in their native language. at least the interface and the commands. it surely depends on the language and how people are used to translated games, but i think this is a problem ps has to face in the nearer or farer future.

(reminds me of linux: console vs gui debates).

right, but in the meantime i have the impression that usability is something which becomes more and more important. and localization is one part of usability in my opinion.  i wonder if kde or gnome would be accepted here in germany without a german translation.

[lynx_lupo]

Let me repeat:

There should be no need to know any commands at all

and since anything but tells in ps are english, there is no need for translations. The usability is high enough that you don\'t have to type anything with a slash infront of it (the interface has most of what you need), so I don\'t see the point. Ok, this was about commands, but the other widget text faces the same problems as described in my previous post (albeit one can play even without any labels at all); this isn\'t as easy as gettextizing ps and then translating it all in a week. It\'d be very ugly, unless someone would extensively work on paws\'s scalability.

That\'s why the kde comparison is bad, ps is so simple you can effectively use it without any non-chatwindow text, while kde is this monster of text (100k+ strings iirc).