hold your fire and take care of your behaviour!

[fken]

Originally posted by Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins
Those who are abusive and racist and like should be banned without comeback via their IP for the sake of the other players, and this game which I am sure would not want to be shut down under the Misuse telecommunications act for unsolicited or malicious electronic transmitions whilst investigations take place!\'

I am against ip banning because each time you ll have a dynamic ip you could be sure that the banned guy will come back and that another  innocent people could be banned with no reasons.

Moreover, i have been banned from an irc chan for personnal reasons that the op would have to explain to me because it was hard for me to understand (at 5am the op ask me to play a little game when i ask him something about php, i refused he banned me... if i were the creator of the chan, the op would be fired). Imagine that the day after when i came back to speak with him on the chan, the op banned all my domain (which was a kind of cloak which concern at least some million frenches and in my mind some millions europeans). I ll be honnest and tell you one thing: if one day a ps gm do that in front of me, ill advice the developpers and the high leveled gm to fire him very quickly because it\'s not a responsible way of behaving... But anyway, the fact of banning people would not be useful because i am sure gm would forget to unban...

If the problem is too big, then take the ip address and the date and then report it. One day i report abusing to an isp... I dunno if it was useful but the abuser finally excuse itself and promise to not annoy me and my forum users anymore... he respected his promise.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Askr

 The fault doesn\'t lie on the side of people who complain. It was just fine before, it would be fine if others didn\'t use other languages. And they don\'t have to. If they came in here, I assume they can speak english. Otherwise I don\'t see a point in joining a english-based community where the main point is to role-play. Role-playing is much harder when you can\'t communicate. Thus the only reason I see for joining such thing, is the game. But that goes under hack&slash. Since mmorpg\'s without social side are basically that.

There is no fault.  No one has done wrong, that is until there are rules instituted.  Which if you are so concerned would probably be the best path to take.

Please, try to reason before posting. If there is no fault, there is no negative reaction. What is this thread? That\'s right - negative reaction.

Originally posted by Askr

In the end I think people who use different languages are just deciding to speak in their native one, because it\'s easier. And at the moment when they decide to do so, they don\'t think about how it could influence the rest of community, if someone might get annoyed because his chatbox gets filled with words he can\'t understand. They think about themselves, because it is so much easier to just use their native language, than try to communicate in english.

Again every player in this world is not here to please every other player.  People are going to get annoyed regardless.  That is part of life.  And barring the few 11 year olds who come in here, I would expect that everyone here is mature enough to realize that the world does not exist solely for their satisfaction.

Please try to reason before posting. In same way you can say in real life \"People are going to get killed regardless. That is part of life.\" But do we allow murderers to do what they want? No, because we want a well working social structure. And to do that we need to enforce certain rules upon the community so that as many people as possible will enjoy their life. If that doesn\'t happen, there will be made petitions (just like we have threads here), anger, splitting within community, prejudices and fights between members of community. heck, I already started to dislike France (and what follows french guilds) because of how rude some of the people from there were in Planeshift. And how did I know they were French? Well take a wild guess!
Again, reason. This game is made solely for their satisfaction. What else would a game be made for?

Originally posted by Askr

Why it\'s fine for people to complain? They play this game for a while, they are a strong part of the community. They are doing just fine in it and enjoy their stay here. So why must they deal with every single annoyment that might be caused by people who are seemingly too lazy to try and use language, which would be understood by all the others?

Why must they deal with it?  Because they are not the sole possessers of this world.  If they think they are, then they should be playing single player games.  Laziness is not taking the annoyances in stride and expecting everyone else to make the effort to change, when they are not willing to do so themselves.

Reason.
Specimen A: Doesn\'t have choice on what it can see.
Specimen B: Has a choice on what others will see. But decides to show them what they don\'t want to see, for personal comfort.
Everything would be fine if they just used english. Would anything go wrong this way? No. If those people are playing Planeshift then they must know english to play it in a correct manner (as in communicate with even random people). Everyone, and I repeat everyone would be fine otherwise. But no, they decide to do it their way, because.... Well, just because.

Originally posted by Askr

Like I said, they don\'t need to use their native language, as they surely know english (or not, but yeah...). All the other people don\'t have a choice. They are forced to hear things they won\'t understand in any way.

They don\'t need to use English either to enjoy the game.  You might not be able to enjoy their company, but they don\'t need you either.  As long as we are talking about \'need\'.

Reason, is it so hard to reason? This is a role-playing game. If they will only communicate with people with knowledge of the respective language, then the role-playing environment will get disrupted and small sub-communities will be created. I believe many people addressed this issue already, you might want to read their posts more carefully.

Originally posted by Askr
Other people do have a choice....ignore those people who aren\'t speaking English.

Just like with the so-called \"trolls\"? This is really awesome how you promote disruption of community, it really is.


Also, I believe USA is much bigger than Yliakum, people there still have connections with other countries (whereas Yliakum doesn\'t) and people still come there from other countries, whilst Yliakum had its mass migration hundreds of years ago and right now is rathe seperated from other worlds. Try to figure out how it would be in USA if it was smaller and completely seperated from the rest of the world. There would be no need for study of other languages, and knowledge passed on would eventually blur and wane away.

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

Originally posted by fken

Originally posted by Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins
Those who are abusive and racist and like should be banned without comeback via their IP for the sake of the other players, and this game which I am sure would not want to be shut down under the Misuse telecommunications act for unsolicited or malicious electronic transmitions whilst investigations take place!\'

I am against ip banning because each time you ll have a dynamic ip you could be sure that the banned guy will come back and that another  innocent people could be banned with no reasons.

Moreover, i have been banned from an irc chan for personnal reasons that the op would have to explain to me because it was hard for me to understand (at 5am the op ask me to play a little game when i ask him something about php, i refused he banned me... if i were the creator of the chan, the op would be fired). Imagine that the day after when i came back to speak with him on the chan, the op banned all my domain (which was a kind of cloak which concern at least some million frenches and in my mind some millions europeans). I ll be honnest and tell you one thing: if one day a ps gm do that in front of me, ill advice the developpers and the high leveled gm to fire him very quickly because it\'s not a responsible way of behaving... But anyway, the fact of banning people would not be useful because i am sure gm would forget to unban...

If the problem is too big, then take the ip address and the date and then report it. One day i report abusing to an isp... I dunno if it was useful but the abuser finally excuse itself and promise to not annoy me and my forum users anymore... he respected his promise.

Hmmm, The GM\'s would not make such a decision, it would be up to the DEV\'s to protect their interests in PS, and therefore they would have to submit their findings (as a result to a complaint) to the ISPs for PS who would no doubt be able to trace the offending computer and identify it...(and from there a user could be identified) and send it the ban or warning of an impending ban for such a crime.

But as said - it would have to be blatent that the person who is being so offensive is aware that their behaviour is unacceptable and refuses to stop it.

[Cha0s]

I didn\'t read all of this because it started getting repetitive. I can tell you right now, there really is no argument here.

It\'s like this: Planeshift is dedicated to role-playing. People can not role-play if they do not speak the same language (I don\'t think they plan on implementing complex hand gestures). Therefore, everyone needs to speak the same language in public chat, even /say.

Here\'s a scenario for you who think using you own language in /say in private areas is fine: A rogue with an invisibility potion/cloak/spell goes to spy on a group. He/she arrives and goes up close to listen... and finds that they\'re all speaking French when he/she speaks English. \"Well, he could ask them to speak English OOC...\" And they wouldn\'t change their behavior at all, knowing someone was listening? Riiiiight.

No one can ever be truly IC: there\'s always a little OOC in there somewhere, and language differences only accentuate this. In addition, I\'d like to point out that (and I quote from the settings page, emphasis added), \"The land of Yliakum is a melting pot of races with different culture and origin, mixed and integrated by living together over the centuries.\" In other words, they probably do speak the same language and have similar cultures.

So, in summary, languages besides English:
-Inhibit role-play and cause exclusion: definitely not respecting others
-Are out of character (see Drak\'s and Seytra\'s earlier posts for more details)
-Can lead to racial tension (I didn\'t discuss this, see Drak\'s posts)


EDIT: Oh, and English needs to be used for a practical reason as well: GMs investigating claims against players invisibly need to be able to understand what they are saying. Using other languages makes the GMs\' job lot a harder.

[Seytra]

Originally posted by Askr
Have you been to America?  Do you live there?  Have you actually set foot outside?

Yes. No, not ATM. Yes.

Originally posted by Askr
1.  Not everyone in America is capable of speaking English.
2.  There are still lots of different languages spoken in America.
3.  Mixing has little influence on this discussion since we have no information regarding generation gaps, life spans, or statistical information concerning racial dispersion over the history of Yliakum.

This reasoning has been ripped to shreds already. Unless you are going ti invent discrete languages for the races / species in Yliakum, you have no point at all, because, as has been stated, with your faulty logic, one dermorian would speak french, another german, a third gaelic, and so on, which is hardly in any way RP. If you go ahead and make race-specific languages, then your reasoning might actually go anywhere, to a point. Until that das... no.

Originally posted by Askr

Well, your statement doesn\'t even have any claim besides \"I\'m right\" and \"You\'re stupid\". Which is a bit sad.

But your statement concerning my laziness and community adaptation is somehow meaningful?  Again, did I state anywhere that you were \'stupid\'?  

It\'s perfectly meaningful, yes. The community adaptation is really nothing special, it\'s common in all communities, so it\'s more a natural law not an argument.

Originally posted by Askr

Lol, I\'m perfectly able to control my emotions, unlike you, it seems, judging from your wording.

What wording was that?  Where you said I called you stupid?  Hmmm... Was it where I brought up hostility?  So far you are the only one bringing up emotions.

Oh? So your statements like \"Let me shed a tear\" and \"Here come these tears again\" are what exactly, if not designed to incite anger? Thought so.

Originally posted by Askr
RP is about communication.  But RP with you is not a requirement.  Ignore realism?  It is a fantasy world, how far are you going to push realism?  Realism is not everyone speaks the same language.  Realism is not everyone gives a care if you want them to speak your language.  Realism is not everyone wants you to be a part of their experiences.  Realism is not \" go out of your way to make Seytra happy\".  When you want to be realistic, let me know.

You are still not capable of graspin the difference between IC and OOC, it seems, whoich is why you keep talking such a nonsense.
Realism is that if at all, the people of the same race in PS are specking the same language. That would be IC, if you leave out the melting pot argument. Realism is not having people of the same race speak different languages for OOC reasons. What\'s so hard to grasp about that?

Also, I don\'t see anyone goint out of their way. In fact, I would have to go out of my way to keep a few moronic \"I don\'t give a crap about the community\" type people happy. Not gonna happen.

Originally posted by Askr

That doesn\'t surprise me, as you seem to be in general unwilling to actually think about the arguments and what people are trying to say with them.

Unwilling to think about the arguments?  Hmmm.... I have thought about it from both sides.  Its really a very simple argument actually.

Glad you agree, there\'s nothing complex and it\'s really common sense.

Originally posted by Askr

You came accross as believing that PS ...

Not my belief at all.  I know the reason why English is used.

So why do you keep arguing against it?

Originally posted by Askr

Your claim that other languages are OK in PS only makes sense if ...

You are talking statistics now.  Your reasoning has completely changed in two posts.  And since you based these arguments on a false assumption, they are again baseless and useless in your defense.

Well, my reasoning didn\'t change at all, I merely didn\'t think it would in any way help to repeat the same arguments once more, and instead brought up new ones. Repeating myself isn\'t worthwhile.

But I would love you to explain how that assumption is false. Please try to prove it false maintaining the distinction between IC and OOC, and thereby applying the term \"realistic\" correctly for once.

Originally posted by Askr

I think you are lacking points, maturity and willingness to integrate...

Willingness to integrate?  I am speaking English.  English is my native tongue.

OK, sorry for mistaking you for one of the \"I speak my language only\" person, then.

Originally posted by Askr
What are you talking about, willingness to integrate?  Maturity?  You mean like the maturity involved in becoming hostile because someone is not speaking English?

Hmm, did I ever do that? Did I even say I condoned this hostility? Nope.

Originally posted by Askr
Or the maturity involved in segregating myself from other players because they are not speaking English?

Weren\'t you the one who said that this is exactly what one has to do? \"If they don\'t speak your language, then you aren\'t supposed to communicate with them\"? You might want to get your arguments to not contradict themselves next time...

Originally posted by Askr
What maturity are you referring to precisely?  The maturity based upon the reasoning that \"because everyone else is doing it so should you\"....

Yes, the maturity of seeing that there is a very valid reason why the community has certain rules (even unwritten ones) and to accept them.

Originally posted by Askr

Hmm, to find out, you might wish to read it some time, maybe? ...

Read what?  Your stance?  I\'ve read it.  It went from emotional breakdowns (hostility towards non-English speaking people)

Hmm, maybe you read the post of someone else, on some other thread on another board, then? Because mine certainly didn\'t contain any of what you claim. Odd thing. Emotional breakdowns? Seriously, whom are you trying to fool here?

Originally posted by Askr
and segregation (subcultures) to being one about statistical values of English speaking people.

No, that was your proposal, not mine.

Originally posted by Askr
Somewhere in there you attempted to throw in the fact that the Devs have chosen English over their (one\'s, someone\'s) native Italian and are trying to use that as a basis to necessitate speaking English in-game. Regardless of the fact that no provision for such a necessity has been made.

I wonder what additional \"provision for such necessity\" would be required besides the reasons I posted.

Originally posted by Askr
I  have read it and I am fully aware of your stance.

Please forgive me when I say that it most certainly looks not like you actually did and are.

Originally posted by Askr
I am also aware of the PS background.  On the otherhand you seem to enjoy making assumptions based upon non-existent information and attribute those false assumptions to the PS world.

Which are? If you are referring to me extrapolating from the given setting to the logical consequences, then I\'m only left to wonder how these are false. You, OTOH, didn\'t even bother to base anything on the settings besides saying that \"originally, the races came from different places\" and then following on in the completely unreasonable and baseless pseudo-logic saying \"That\'s why every race can have every RL language depending on player\", from which follows that it\'s perfectly natural and realistic for the same race with the same origin not being able to understand each other.

Originally posted by Askr

Well, the fact that you don\'t want them to carry weight doesn\'t mean they don\'t...

Everyone?  Everyone consists of many more people than 3.  I am sure you are aware of that little fact.  It doesn\'t matter if I want them to carry weight or not.  Until a rule is made, everything else is just wishful thinking.

Ah, OK, let me get this straight: three out of four who are posting are not in any way \"everyone except that one\"?
And we already know that you are one of the \"Unless there\'s a law, I won\'t exhibit anything besides rudeness and most certainly I\'ll enjoy doing things against etiquette just because.\" people.

Originally posted by Askr

Hmm, the tactic of adding \"Another baseless example\" ...

It is not a tactic.  It is simply pointing out your poor examples.  Actual arguments?  \'The language of the place you are in\' is not an argument when there is no single language of the place I am in.  It makes no sense and has no validity as an example in this discussion.  Which is what makes it baseless.

Well, so there is no single language in the place called PS? What about english? What about the fact that it was chosen by the devs, which even you acknowledged? So how can this argument possibly be invalid?

Originally posted by Askr

Anyway, this quite obviously is not restricted to any particular place. The points to take are:

Your goal was to communicate with only one single person?  If so, you are not contributing to the RP environment and might be considered to be stalking.  Or is your goal to communicate with every person there?  Because we both know the latter is not true.  If I need to dig up quotes to prove so, I will.

Oh, I know which posts you will be digging up. It\'ll be those where I said that I will ignore some people. I think you will purposefully leave out the reasons why, or probably claim them invalid. :rolleyes:
But does that prove you correct in any way? No, not at all. The greatest number of people is still very well within that communication, and your point about stalking made me chuckle.

It obviously is an alien concept to you, but since RP is about communication, and since RP also can\'t usually be pre-planned because you don\'t even know if an RP opportunity will arise from the characters of two or more RPers, then the necessary conclusion is that in order to see if RP is possible, and to have it actually happen naturally, it is necessary to be able to overhear what other RPers say, even when they are not interacting with you or don\'t even know you. I have elaborated on that on another thread already, though.

Originally posted by Askr

4) this example is an almost perfect, and thus a highly relevant comparison to the situation we are discussing.

It is nowhere near perfect because:

a.  Your goal is not to communicate with every single person but to RP in the PS environment.

Save the very few exceptions, it actually is.

Originally posted by Askr
Communication is only allowable in an RP manner and therefore any normal daily communication with non-English speaking people would not take place anyway.

And these people are going to speak english when they RP? Or are you saying that it is OK for them to be OOC all the time, whch would contradict the \"Communication only for RP\", though?

Originally posted by Askr
b. The language is not official until it is stated to be so in TOS, User Agreement or in the game information itself.  Which no such statement exists.

The \"sue me\" argument again. Etiquette and such things must be completely alien to you. And several PS affiliated people have stated that english is the official language of PS. But you are going to insist on this despisable attitude, anyway.

Originally posted by Askr
c.  This game has not been created for the sole purpose of you fulfilling your goal.  It is created for the enjoyment of many people, of which you are but one.

Yes, and it\'s not just my enjoyment being reduced, so where is the point?

Originally posted by Askr

Therefore you dismissing it as baseless cannot be explained by logic.

This statement is illogical.

I think I expliained why it isn\'t.

Originally posted by Askr

Here comes the immaturity again, paired with gross inability to read properly...

That is humorous.

Yes, isn\'t it? I liked that a lot myself. :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Askr

It\'s not spam because it doesn\'t directly pertain to me...

Almost noone....

It floods the screen...

The same could be said for you.  Regardless, if you don\'t like it... use the ignore filter.  Or does that fall under the issue of laziness?

OK, there is the \"go and separate\" argument again... which is interesting since you don\'t want me to... or do you... or not? Oh, whatever is convenient to your non-reasooning... now I got it...

Originally posted by Askr

Now isn\'t the contradiction funny?

That is not a contradiction.  

Especially given that yes indeed my point was that I am here solely to communicate with others?...

Because they are not here for the sole purpose of assisting you in fulfilling your goal.  This game is not about you.  The fact that you think it is somehow centered around you is in reality a bit rude.  I believe the name is PlaneShift, not Seytra\'s Goals.

I love it how you try to make it somehow look like I was saying that, even though I stated, several times, that I am a mere placeholder for \"everyone\".
But in a way you are even right:
PS is there for RP alone.
I am in PS for RP alone
Therefore, PS is there to fulfill my goal. Just like any other RPer. And RPers is what PS centers around.

Originally posted by Askr

You see, if you think that these unwilling to adopt the community\'s language ...

No because they are not saying that you must help them fulfill their goals.  You are saying they must help you fulfill yours.  That then makes you the center of the issue, because you want them to conform to your desires, and not the other way around.  They are content to not have you involved in their experience, whereas you feel they should somehow strive to better your experience.

Yes. Unless their goals are to RP, then their goals are not aligned with PS, so they have no justification to be in PS. If their goals are RP, then I am there, as I have stated, to fullfill them just as they are there to fulfill mine, which are the same. If their goals aren\'t RP, then I\'m obviously not there, not even supposed to be there to fullfill them. But you obviously aren\'t going to understand why the separation and segregation is going to harm everyone by lessening the enjoyment of all through dramatically reducing opportunities to interact.
The fact that some selfish ignorant fools don\'t really hurt is simply due to the fact that the vast majority acts reasonable and in line with what is required to have an enjoyable experience. If everyone would think as you advocate or deem acceptable, then you\'d have a hard time talking to anyone in PS.

Originally posted by Askr

Is it furthermore not funny how you accuse me ...

And apparently they have no issue with that.  On the other hand you seem to take issue in the fact that they can and will play the game without you.

Well, murderers generally tend not to have an issue with them murdering others. Likewise, rulebreakers, as odd as it might seem, generally don\'t have any problems with them breaking the rules. Rude people also generally don\'t think they are doing wrong. Does that make them right? No, it doesn\'t.

Originally posted by Askr

Oh, and before you go \"The other players aren\'t there for you!\" again: What are they there for, then?

To play the game.

Which is? Oh, right, RP, thus communication, thus interacting... and -tada- there I am...
But you are likely one Hack&Slasher who thinks the game is about stats, in which case you are right: they interact by numbers and stats and ranking tables. But PS isn\'t about that, so they aren\'t playing the game.

Originally posted by Askr

If you abstract the concept \"me\" to \"other players\", which is completely valid...

They are not there to provide an option.   They are there to RP for their own benefit.  They didn\'t join this game to please others.  They joined the game to enjoy the pleasure themselves.   You are not necessary for that.

Your view of RP is quite sad. RP is about others, not just about oneself. If you RP only for your own, then your RP isn\'t RP, and agai, if everyone ios going to act that way, noone will end up having any fun, but I think you aren\'t going to see why that would be.

Originally posted by Askr

So therefore by entering PS, you are indeed promising to allow that interaction for others...

No such promises were made.  Nor were they asked of any players joining PS.  I am not there for you.  Don\'t think so highly of yourself to think that I have any interest in assisting you in your goals, RP or otherwise.

*yawn* Placeholder, etc. pp..

Originally posted by Askr

As I elaborated above, \"me\" is merely a placeholder for \"anyone\". About meeting them halfway...

Entirely serious.  The exact same way you would interact with people IRL that don\'t speak your language.  Meet them halfway.

Not gonna happen, because completely different situations and thus not comparable. Explained several times, understood by you not once.

Originally posted by Askr

I don\'t see them trying to meet the community even a tiny little bit on the way, BTW.

They weren\'t communicating with you.  Therefore they were in no need to meet you even a little bit of the way.

See above.

Originally posted by Askr

It\'s always the newcomer who needs to go the greatest part of the way...

Never.  It is always the elders who should be doing the most to set the best examples.  The newcomers should always have the leaway needed to find their niche and become accustomed to the new environment.

Not at all. A community can\'t just completely reshape itself to accommodate some oddbal newcomer. One day a french guy thinks everyone needs to speak french, next day a german, next day a fin, next day... seriously, don\'t you see how that isn\'t going to work at all?

Originally posted by Askr

Ah, yes, you are obviously one of the people who insist on doing things unless a court rules against it...

Etiquette differs from place to place.  I don\'t consider trying to force feed newcomers my personal goals to be proper etiquette.

The ting isn\'t about me (us) trying to get them to show a little courtesy and speak english, but them refusing to do the b#most basic thing to actually participate in the community. I won\'t accept sub-communities forming and segregating from everyone else, that would be so against the PS goal of having one single, consistent world it can\'t be more obvious.

Originally posted by Askr

Entering a place where english is the language of choice ...

Again there are no provisions made for language.  So it is the language of your choice.  Obviously the majority\'s as well, but it is not the only option.  That is just your misguided belief.

Hmm, OK, then how about the consistent world? That\'s even on the mainsite. How do different separate subcommunities fit in there?

Originally posted by Askr

And it is the reason why people start getting hostile towards those who are rude

You are the only rude individual so far.   Your manners are atrocious.  Your choice of wording is very nearly insulting and your arguments are demonstrative of one who thinks more of himself than the community he is so savagely trying to defend.

Is that so? Maybe if you don\'t read what I stated. I\'m not rude, I\'m merely listing the reasons why english is really necessary to be used. My wording isn\'t in any way more insulting than yours, and I\'m inclined to say it\'s quite less insulting, even. Your attitude and that of these you defend is despisable, though.

Originally posted by Askr

, and in the long run towards foreigners in general,

This is an internet RP World.  There are no foreigners.  I am quite amused that you did mention this though.  It serves well to demonstrate why you are taking such an interest in these matters.

Ah, call me nazi out loud if you dare. And even if you do, I don\'t care at all, I had that happen before, just like I\'ve been called comunist, socialist, and what have you. Doesn\'T make any more true then the other.
You are, once again, purposefully mixing things that are distinctly different.
Internet world... yes, there are no foreigners. Still, once people make themselves foreigners to the internet community (by alienating everyone who doesn\'t speak their language, thereby lessening the internet community to a RL community which then includes foreigners), they become not only foreigners there, but also everyone will know they are IRL.
If what you say was true, then
1) no hostility by these \"nuke france\" people would exist
2) noone would speak in something other than the community language

Therefore, once people insist on bringing their nationality into the community, they create foreignness and thus bring in all the things that, technically, don\'t exist in an internet community.

Hmm, to phrase things like you:
\"Another baseless claim of yours.\" :rolleyes:

Originally posted by Askr

because they have had to learn that a lot of them are rude...

So now you are at issue with nationalities other than yourself.  Has this game become your personal playground so that you can spread your potentially hateful (or was that hostile?) beliefs?

Hmm, maybe my shift in what I am referring to has been too subtle for you?
I was quite obviously referring to the people who went \"nuke france\", which doesn\'t have anything to do with PS anymore.
And it is furthermore funny how you are now trying to phrase things as if I was somehow actually spreading racist propaganda, when in fact all I was trying to do is explain why being rude and highly nationalistic (which is what insisting on forcing one\'s local language into another community is) does create negative feelings and attitude.
But obviously that would put the blame to those who insist on \"being french in an internet community\", whom you are defending, and that can\'t ever happen, can it?

Originally posted by Askr

No, I don\'t agree with \"nuke France\", nor any other country...

So they should give up who they are to be just like you because you don\'t approve of their difference?

Ah? So now PS somehow isn\'t an internet community anymore? Now suddenly it matters where you are from and what you are? My, your contradictions are ridiculous.

Originally posted by Askr

When someone goes somewhere and indulges in blatantly disregarding the local customs...

Again that is how you view the world.  Your customs do not apply, because this is a fantasy world.  There are no provisions made for language.  Until then, there are no \"customs\" concerning languages, there just assumptions.

Haha, I\'ve yet to see a more unfitting and more inappropriate use of the useless \"it\'s fantasy\" pseudo-argument! )

And I\'ve yet to see someone else who contradicts himself in his arguments so continously as you do! )
This is really funny, believe me!
So is this, or is this not, an internet community? Does, or does not, nationality matter? Are there, or are there not, customs that pertain to the PS community?

But then again, I think it\'s really without any value to try to discuss with someone like you who isn\'t even capable of building a consistent, coherent thought structure to frame his own arguments.

So, come back when you have grown up, OK?

Edit: Oh, BTW, you are now one of the ones on my ignore list (which makes four, including the ones who have left PS already). So you don\'t even have to search for another thread to quote from.

[Cyl]

I have had a lengthy conversation about this with sengus...

soo to make my point clearer; I personally wouldn\'t mind seeing one, or another speaking another language, but letting everyone speak the language he wants to would cause something I call \'Tower of Babylon effect\'. Over short or long the already fragile community would be shattered due to the fact that people who use to speak a certain language ingame would obviously begin to gather at certain places, slowly but surely creating German districts, French districts, whatever, and in the worst case english would just be a filler language to tell people to \'**** off\' if they dont speak the correspodenting language. Moreover (man it\'s the first time ever that I use this word on a Message Board ...) the pseudo-\"realism\" of haveing different languages ingame has been discussed thoroughly...

Edited for language.

[fken]

do you feel its a threat for you? ... I am french and i stay with the english community, especially when i rp. I have been happy the day i came to Yliakum because i saw a group of frenches who explained me how the game works... with the say chan.

Who is able to know how it would happen if it was an american for example who would have shown me the way to play ps? Just imagine than an OP from an important chan banned me (see previous post) because he never tried to imagine that i could have trouble to speak a good english at 5am (especially when the guy is speaking about programmation with english terms) and because he wasnt able to imagine that i didnt want to play a game at 5am. Just imagine that one day a guy insult me because I didnt want to read a complete wikipedia page (a very big one) to understand what foo means...

He said something like
type \"apt-get install foo\"
I answered there is no foo package on my debian distrib
He sent me to the wikipedia link
I saw a page where the subject was about a lot of various subject... but nothing about computer... I though it was another guy who think he is intelligent because of childish jokes so I asked that to another guy.
And finally : the miracle ! The guy said:
apt-get install foo = apt-get install , XXXXXX ! (replace XXXXXX with another word with mother inside...)
So even if after the atmosphere has been better and even if the guy was a good man... I could imagine that there could be some issues when a french would ask something to an american or anyone else who dont speak french...

And now you will say : PS is not for the one who dont speak english...

So the game would be for english only... and ps would not be international anymore! Say it to Talad...

I never saw trouble with MB... I am wondering if MB wasnt better finaly... I am at least speaking about mentality, behaviours, community... Just think about the number of people who played a lot of hours to find xtals... for us the game wasnt boring because there was the famous ps community, a friendly community... but now people wanna add rules to forbid foreigner languages, people insult each others, ... maybe people wanna forbid foreigner newbies access to ps?

[Seytra]

Originally posted by fken
do you feel its a threat for you?

Oh, please come on and be reasonable, OK? Noone said they felt threatened. :rolleyes: However, as has also been beaten to death, the segregation issue does exist, and that issue is a threat. Not to anyone in particular, but to the entire community, regardless of native language. Even if you are not prone to segregation, others are and will be, I don\'t see reason to deny that.

Originally posted by fken
... I am french and i stay with the english community, especially when i rp. I have been happy the day i came to Yliakum because i saw a group of frenches who explained me how the game works... with the say chan.

Would it have posed any particular problem to do that inside a /group? Seriously, that is all that is being asked for! Is that really too much to ask? I really don\'t think it is.

Originally posted by fken
Who is able to know how it would happen if it was an american for example who would have shown me the way to play ps? Just imagine than an OP from an important chan banned me (see previous post) because he never tried to imagine that i could have trouble to speak a good english at 5am (especially when the guy is speaking about programmation with english terms) and because he wasnt able to imagine that i didnt want to play a game at 5am. Just imagine that one day a guy insult me because I didnt want to read a complete wikipedia page (a very big one) to understand what foo means...

I think these are very different issues. The problems you are referring to lie with the person that you spoke to, not with the language. I can imagine that \"foo\" isn\'t necessarily known to have that meaning to all americans as well. After all, it\'s origins are certainly different from the meaning it has acquired now.

Originally posted by fken
He said something like
type \"apt-get install foo\"

If that person would have been me, you\'d have received:
\"apt-get install \"
I answered there is no foo package on my debian distrib
He sent me to the wikipedia link
[/quote]
If that person would have been me, you\'d have received:
\"Foo= whatever package you require, sorry for the confusion \" or something along these lines.

Originally posted by fken
I saw a page where the subject was about a lot of various subject... but nothing about computer... I though it was another guy who think he is intelligent because of childish jokes so I asked that to another guy.

In a way he was, because the work of digging up the link was certainly more than the sentence above, and if he has that link handy, he was obviously out to get people by it on purpose.

Originally posted by fken
And finally : the miracle ! The guy said:
apt-get install foo = apt-get install , XXXXXX ! (replace XXXXXX with another word with mother inside...)
So even if after the atmosphere has been better and even if the guy was a good man... I could imagine that there could be some issues when a french would ask something to an american or anyone else who dont speak french...

Well, but this isn\'t in any way specific to french <-> english. In fact, I\'m perfectly sure that it could happen in any two languages.

Originally posted by fken
And now you will say : PS is not for the one who dont speak english...

So the game would be for english only... and ps would not be international anymore! Say it to Talad...

No. The only thing that is being said is that PS is for those who can communicate in english, even if only marginally. However, if you define this as \"english only\", then yes, PS is english only. And this is, as has been stated, not because people who don\'t speak english are somehow inherently bad, but simply because of the undeniable fact that once you allow native language groups, these will absorb a great lot of those who could as well speak english but prefer to stay with their language group because it\'s easier. And this then means that the community of PS won\'t be one anymore, it won\'t be international, not global anymore, but national groups that simply happen to run in parallel. If that would be the case, then I know that several RP opportunities I did have would highly likely never have arisen. And from the feedback I received I deduce that I wasn\'t the only one enjoying them.

Originally posted by fken
I never saw trouble with MB... I am wondering if MB wasnt better finaly... I am at least speaking about mentality, behaviours, community... Just think about the number of people who played a lot of hours to find xtals...

The merit of running after crystal spawn is highly debatable all by itself.

Originally posted by fken
for us the game wasnt boring because there was the famous ps community, a friendly community... but now people wanna add rules to forbid foreigner languages,

In public only.

Originally posted by fken
people insult each others,

Which has in no single post been condoned.

Originally posted by fken
... maybe people wanna forbid foreigner newbies access to ps?

Which has also never been said, thought or intended.

There is a fine line between integrating but retaining some traditions and forming a parallel society without any sort of integration. The first is good and does enrich the overall society, the latter is bad and does lead to aggression as history tells over and over again.
Edit:
If we spin this further, we would soon see nation-specific guilds, and in the further course we would see guild wars between these guilds, none of which would have any basis in RP, being completely OOC. It could easily transform PS into a battleground of nationalistic people. Brazil vs. France. UK vs. Ireland. Germany vs. Poland. Turkey vs. America. This is a worst case scenario, but the OP was AFAICS a clear indication that these things are a very real possibility, if we like it or not.
/Edit
I sincerely hope that I have made myself clear and comprehensible this time, because otherwise I really see no chance of me ever getting my thoughts accross.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by fken
a friendly community... but now people wanna add rules to forbid foreigner languages,

Are you sure you speak of the same game? As far as I remember there were quite a few cases in MB where shout channel was cluttered with french words and any attempt to make people who used this language to stop had a response of them only making it worse.

[zorbels]

Is this still going on!!! :O

/me throws in the towel and walks off well rolling her eyes

[Draklar]

This issue is in Planeshift for so long that you shouldn\'t expect discussion about it to die out within few days ;)

[zorbels]

Originally posted by Draklar
This issue is in Planeshift for so long that you shouldn\'t expect discussion about it to die out within few days

I never expected this issue to die out at all to be honest. With the way this thread is going I do not believe there will ever be closer on this issue at all. It seems to me that the issue is not complicated at all, just the people who debate it. *Sigh* Plus I am a \"can\'t we all get along type of gal.\" In short I hope it ends well but will not hold my breath...

[Edit] I just wanted to add to all who participate in this thread there is such a thing called \"I agree to disagree\" basically saying ok you have your opinion and I have mine. After all of the debating I have not changed your mind and you have not changed mine. So let us agree to disagree because our opinions have been posted. That way it stays friendly and no one feels attacked. Just a suggestion........

[Askr]

Originally posted by Draklar
Please, try to reason before posting. If there is no fault, there is no negative reaction. What is this thread? That\'s right - negative reaction.

Try to reason?  I cannot believe you actually said that.  Proper reasoning would be that the people who are attempting to keep others from speaking their own language during their enjoyment of a game to be at fault.

Please try to reason before posting. In same way you can say in real life \"People are going to get killed regardless. That is part of life.\" But do we allow murderers to do what they want? No, because we want a well working social structure. And to do that we need to enforce certain rules upon the community so that as many people as possible will enjoy their life. If that doesn\'t happen, there will be made petitions (just like we have threads here), anger, splitting within community, prejudices and fights between members of community. heck, I already started to dislike France (and what follows french guilds) because of how rude some of the people from there were in Planeshift. And how did I know they were French? Well take a wild guess!
Again, reason. This game is made solely for their satisfaction. What else would a game be made for?

Are you saying that you are trying to reason before posting?  Because your posts and telling me to reason makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.

Murder cannot in any intelligent way be equated with speaking one\'s native tongue.  That is ridiculous.

Prejudice, anger spitting, and other nonsense are only a result of those people who feel the need to force others to conform to their wishes.  Who feel that they are somehow more in the right.  Who feel that they are somehow superior and more valuable.  It is not a result of equality and common decency or even respect for others.

So you are attempting to validate your dislike for French people by making PS an English speaking only game?  Hmmm....  what reasoning did you have for that?  Inability to control your emotions?  Personal vendettas?

Please feel free to use intelligent debating techniques.  Stating \"reason\" and then being unreasonable doesn\'t equate.

Reason.

Again, your posts about \"reason\" are not demonstrating any ability to reason.

Specimen A: Doesn\'t have choice on what it can see.

Who is \"it\"?  You are aware of the ability to filter right?  Absolutely no reasoning involved in this statement.

Specimen B: Has a choice on what others will see. But decides to show them what they don\'t want to see, for personal comfort.

Again no reason involved at all.  Use the filter.  That is reasonable.  It is a win-win situation.  You, because of your barbaric ethnic-dislikes, won\'t have to see the French speakers.  They don\'t have to stop speaking French.  Of course that would require you to realize the reasonable nature of not being lazy.

Everything would be fine if they just used english.

Everything would be fine if they just used French and you weren\'t a bigot.  But, hey, being a bigot is so much more reasonable than using the ignore filter.  Right?

Would anything go wrong this way?

Morally?  Technically?  How are you asking?  Morally, yes.  You are of absolutely no more value than they are.  Therefore your language is inherently no more valuable than theirs.  You are digging yourself a hole, it is wise to stop before you never see the light of day again.

No. If those people are playing Planeshift then they must know english to play it in a correct manner (as in communicate with even random people). Everyone, and I repeat everyone would be fine otherwise. But no, they decide to do it their way, because.... Well, just because.

Everyone?  Everyone except the person who is being forced[/i] to speak another language.  Just because you find it suitable, does not mean everyone will agree with you.  As has been made blatantly obvious by this entire discussion.  Of course, that all goes with out saying, considering the original post.  \"Just because\" is not sufficient.  Leave PS, never come back, just because I told you to.

Reason, try to use it, if you\'re going to talk about it.

Reason, is it so hard to reason?

Apparently, it is very difficult for you.  Either that or you do not understand what it means \"to reason\".

This is a role-playing game.

Wow.  Glad you finally figured that out.

If they will only communicate with people with knowledge of the respective language, then the role-playing environment will get disrupted and small sub-communities will be created.

Filter.  Sub-communities should be created if one wants this role-playing game to be realistic.  Sub-communities should be created for a great many reasons: 1. alignment  2. craft  3.  occupation   4. language  5.  race  6.  religion... and so on.  That is what happens in cultures, if you want realism this is the perfect way to do it.

I believe many people addressed this issue already, you might want to read their posts more carefully.

2 people are not many people.  I have read the posts.  I am fully aware of the inanity of your arguments.  \"Just because\" is not a good reason for anything.

Just like with the so-called \"trolls\"? This is really awesome how you promote disruption of community, it really is.

Promote disruption of the community?  If they are ignored they can no longer disrupt you.  Your deductive powers are amazingly infantile.

Also, I believe USA is much bigger than Yliakum, people there still have connections with other countries (whereas Yliakum doesn\'t) and people still come there from other countries, whilst Yliakum had its mass migration hundreds of years ago and right now is rathe seperated from other worlds.

Not according to Seytra.  All aspects of PS are already implemented for RP purposes.  Also there is no reason to believe (according to the information presented) that the portals are closed off entirely.  And regardless of how many years ago the mass exodus was without knowledge of lifespans, racial dispersion, population (not to mention all of these statistics as relevent between levels) etc there is no reason to believe that any languages would have died out or been replaced by a single Common Tongue.  Likewise, if lifespans are sufficiently long enough the languages themselves would have actually changed very little in that amount of time.

 Try to figure out how it would be in USA if it was smaller and completely seperated from the rest of the world. There would be no need for study of other languages, and knowledge passed on would eventually blur and wane away.

I\'m sure you think this makes sense.  In reality it doesn\'t.  There are many factors, not governed or even having provision for in PS, that affect the change and replacement of language.  This aspect of the argument is moot.

[Karyuu]

I think this is becoming a little ridiculous now. Everyone is taking things way too personally, misinterpreting, putting things into the mouths of others, and trying to sneak in personal attacks. Is it so impossible to have a debate that does not fall into these pot-holes? This is addressed to both parties of the argument.

I also don\'t think there is anything else to debate about, really. English is the official language of PlaneShift, and other languages should be used via private channels (such as /group, /tell, /guild, etc.). This isn\'t a hard thing to do, nor is this a hard thing to adjust to. Insulting -anyone- for -any- OOC reason such as language, religion, culture, etc., isn\'t going to be tolerated. But it doesn\'t change the fact that English should be the primary language used in crowded public places.

[Draklar]

Askr: You\'ll have to excuse me, but I\'m not going to bother answering to your post. It would be pointless. If you\'d follow disagreeing with me with any reasons why, maybe. But right now - no.

And geez, I\'m not comparing speaking different language to murdering. I\'m showing it as a different form of disruption that actually has been dealt with for the goodwill of general community.

Edit:

Although I find this funny:

Everything would be fine if they just used english.

Everything would be fine if they just used French and you weren\'t a bigot.  But, hey, being a bigot is so much more reasonable than using the ignore filter.  Right?

I didn\'t create this thread. So apparently even without me being a biggot, not everything is fine.