Baddest of the Bad?

[Sangwa]

Yay, I\'ll get to see Annah in-game in a remote future!

As long as freedom is concerned... Currently we are quite free, we just don\'t understand each other.
That\'s rather chaotic and in portuguese it wouldn\'t even be called Freedom (Liberdade), but chaotic freedom (Libertinagem.)

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Annah

There isn\'t such a thing as time wasted when one\'s having fun ^^.

Oh yeah, like in the old times. ^_^

I keep saying this about alignments, and have already posted it in the wish list: The Developers should choose an alignment system. Chosing no alignment system is a valid choice, but they have to specify, else people will keep spawning their own ideas and disregard any kind of organization the alignment systems should bring.

And isn\'t this better? A greater freedom? After all, this way more people will \"love\" the game, having their own ideas in this matter.

Meh, and who cursed me again? It seems I cannot download the game client by any means. Meh.

Chaotic evil is fun to RP once in a while, but it\'s also fun to enforce certain rules and constraints onto  yourself.  For instance, do not murder an innocent, or do not rob from a thief, or do not deal in weapons.  It adds colour.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Annah
 You see, good, evil, they\'re only words, they\'re both relative. Same as the borders that exists between them, they exist only in our mind.

If I was given $1 each time you said that, I could buy myself a big bag of candies.
And if I was given $1 each time someone countered this argument, instantly making it lose its worth, I\'d have... two bags of candies \\o/

For the n time, Annah.
The words aren\'t relative!
They have specific meaning behind them that you could easily find in any dictionary.
It doesn\'t matter whether you\'ll replce \'good\' with \'evil\' and \'evil\' with \'good\'.
Or \'good\' --> \'sheep\', \'evil\' --> \'lemon\' for that matter.
That meaning behind all this will remain the same.
You know \'school\' is only a word, but likewise it isn\'t relative. You can\'t define school as fruit growing on a palm tree. There\'s specific meaning behind them. It\'s basic knowledge of communication. We use words to express certain meaning and we define the words so that we can communicate between each other. I hope this had to be explained for the last time.

Oh and Sep, there\'s no difference between real-life evil and rpg evil. I can call myself chaotic-neutral and Vero lawful-evil on just about same basis.

[seperot]

Oh and Sep, there\'s no difference between real-life evil and rpg evil. I can call myself chaotic-neutral and Vero lawful-evil on just about same basis.

i was more on the what people want wave...


also.... School of fish \\o

[Pestilence]

Originally posted by Draklar

Originally posted by Annah
 You see, good, evil, they\'re only words, they\'re both relative. Same as the borders that exists between them, they exist only in our mind.

If I was given $1 each time you said that, I could buy myself a big bag of candies.
And if I was given $1 each time someone countered this argument, instantly making it lose its worth, I\'d have... two bags of candies \\o/

For the n time, Annah.
The words aren\'t relative!
They have specific meaning behind them that you could easily find in any dictionary.
It doesn\'t matter whether you\'ll replce \'good\' with \'evil\' and \'evil\' with \'good\'.
Or \'good\' --> \'sheep\', \'evil\' --> \'lemon\' for that matter.
That meaning behind all this will remain the same.
You know \'school\' is only a word, but likewise it isn\'t relative. You can\'t define school as fruit growing on a palm tree. There\'s specific meaning behind them. It\'s basic knowledge of communication. We use words to express certain meaning and we define the words so that we can communicate between each other. I hope this had to be explained for the last time.

Oh and Sep, there\'s no difference between real-life evil and rpg evil. I can call myself chaotic-neutral and Vero lawful-evil on just about same basis.

hmmm so in the dictionary it says what good is? Look it up and a good dictionary will give so many meanings that you can hardly call it a description of the meaning but only of how it is used.

But even if you have a meaning to the word what is concidered good is still not the same. What is a good game for example? Different answers by different people and so it is with all things.

If a guild rises how can you say if it\'s good? You can say the majority of the people think the guild will do good but does it then make it good by what the majority thinks?

Same with evil. chopping down trees to build a farm there might by some concidered good becusse it will provide food for people. While others might say it\'s an evil act to destroy nature in this way and people should learn to live with nature more closely instead.

Ofcourse good and evil aren\'t totally relative but they aren\'t defined words either as with taste it differs per person how they feel about it it and what it means to them.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Pestilence
hmmm so in the dictionary it says what good is? Look it up and a good dictionary will give so many meanings that you can hardly call it a description of the meaning but only of how it is used.

Good
[adj]  having or showing or arising from a desire to promote the welfare or happiness of others.

This should be enough to answer the question. Is the desire to promote the welfare relative? No, only how it is done can be different, the whole desire is a set term. It also explains how come all types of good (lawful, neutral, chaotic) are good, despise \"doing their thing\" differently.

Originally posted by Pestilence
But even if you have a meaning to the word what is concidered good is still not the same. What is a good game for example? Different answers by different people and so it is with all things.

Good game has no connection with the actual ethical meaning of good. Come up with relevant example, after reading the definition I pointed out above.

Originally posted by Pestilence
If a guild rises how can you say if it\'s good? You can say the majority of the people think the guild will do good but does it then make it good by what the majority thinks?

Is that relevant? I can\'t possibly be absolutely sure what someone is like. But does my lack of knowledge change anything? Again, I point to the definition.

Originally posted by Pestilence
Same with evil. chopping down trees to build a farm there might by some concidered good becusse it will provide food for people. While others might say it\'s an evil act to destroy nature in this way and people should learn to live with nature more closely instead.

This was brought up so many times... And yet it is such a simple concept to understand. Most of the actions we do consist of both \'good\' and \'evil\', what is the stronger factor in our actions, decides on our \'alignment\'.
I advise looking into the yin and yang concept.

Everything has its opposite - although this is never absolute, only comparative. No one thing is completely yin or completely yang. Each contains the seed of its opposite.

Originally posted by Pestilence
Ofcourse good and evil aren\'t totally relative but they aren\'t defined words either as with taste it differs per person how they feel about it it and what it means to them.

And once again I point to the above definition. Causing happiness isn\'t relative. Either someone gets happier thanks to your actions, or not.
It goes down to,
Good - causing happiness.
Evil - causing misfortune.
Pretty well defined to me.



Edit: Was listening to \"The Ripper\" song and it reminded me:

Sangwa, the whole leadership skills of Seperot appear to me to be solely an ooc thing. I cannot fathom how someone of such past as Seperot could grow to be a skilled leader. He much more appears to me as the Ripper of Planeshift, who is inclined to commit bloody murders on other people.
Developing charisma while being tormented and made fun of during the childhood isn\'t likely to happen. Anger, hatred, doing things by force is much more reasonable.

[Annah]

Draklar, for god\'s sake large your views and see out of that tiny box you live in. (Oh my how good I\'m feeling saying these words)

Oh and Sep, there\'s no difference between real-life evil and rpg evil. I can call myself chaotic-neutral and Vero lawful-evil on just about same basis.

With that, your statement before that phrase just lost its meaning. Why? Because no one said I was wrong in what I said, they just said it won\'t apply in a game for RPing example. Why? Why can\'t you agree with me and say you were wrong? Though everyone is welcome and free to have their own opinion, I guess that makes \"something\" being relative after all ...

:rolleyes:

Pestilence covered up pretty well, but I\'ll say something one more time.

Good - causing happiness.
Evil - causing misfortune.
Pretty well defined to me.

Happiness for who? What can bring joy for some, can bring sorrow for others. Same goes for \"evil\". Pretty? What I can consider beautiful, you can consider damn ugly.

Ofcourse good and evil aren\'t totally relative but they aren\'t defined words either as with taste it differs per person how they feel about it it and what it means to them.

You\'re too smart for him. Welcome to PlaneShift.

[seperot]

Draklar yes that was his life till 12... but he may hate....alot  but he has more of a lack of trust which he uses a personallity mask to make people belive he is nicer then he is....dont wanna get more into it....it gives away too much

[Draklar]

Annah, since you\'re more open minded and smarter than me, I\'m sure you know what argumentum ad hominem is. And if you don\'t, look it up so you can try to not repeat doing that during discussions.

Now to answer your points.

Draklar, for god\'s sake large your views and see out of that tiny box you live in. (Oh my how good I\'m feeling saying these words)

Nothing to answer here, completely personal venture.

With that, your statement before that phrase just lost its meaning. Why? Because no one said I was wrong in what I said, they just said it won\'t apply in a game for RPing example.

My statement before that phrase lost its meaning because no one said you were wrong? Sorry, but that logic is... flawed?
I said it won\'t apply to both rl and rp, as both should be based on same psychological rules. Game is a game, but for proper role-playing you have to create realistic characters.

Why? Why can\'t you agree with me and say you were wrong? Though everyone is welcome and free to have their own opinion, I guess that makes \"something\" being relative after all ...

Usually after \"Why?\" I\'d expect a reason, but here I see only question why I can\'t agree that I were wrong. The answer is simple, really. You don\'t give logical arguments, which would ultimately support what you said, and prove my statements as wrong. Instead I hear personal attacks, which quite frankly, won\'t convince me to admit you are right.
And by the way, opinion isn\'t a measurable characteristic, thus can\'t be relative. Same with good (Does \"he\'s showing a desire to promote the welfare or happiness of others compared to someone else.\" make sense?), it isn\'t a measurable characteristic. Someone being worse/better. Those are relative terms.

Happiness for who? What can bring joy for some, can bring sorrow for others. Same goes for \"evil\". Pretty? What I can consider beautiful, you can consider damn ugly.

Did you miss that point intentionally?

\"Everything has its opposite - although this is never absolute, only comparative. No one thing is completely yin or completely yang. Each contains the seed of its opposite.\"

Now second point, Annah as beautiful I consider something that is delighting the senses or exciting intellectual or emotional admiration. You don\'t?
Sure we can go into opinions, as to what is delighting senses and what is not, but those are only opinions. Opinions don\'t count when judging something. Do you think in law when judging someone people go all \"in my opinion you are guilty.\"? No, they have a large set of articles and rules, supported by facts brought up by others to do that (in same way we have set of definitions to help us to judge what is good and what is evil).
Otherwise it would be like \"I believe you are guilty and that you should die for what you did, so that\'s what shall happen. Case closed.\"
Again, opinions are irrelevant.

You\'re too smart for him. Welcome to PlaneShift.

Was there a need for this empty statement?

[Annah]

You don\'t give logical arguments, ...

What means \"logical\"?

Instead I hear personal attacks

It\'s called irony. Meh, \"Annah\" has chosen you for that. Be proud.

Was there a need for this empty statement?

Not really.

Let me add something. Look, an \"evil\" character, Sangwa. Don\'t know about you, but when the name \"Sangwa\" comes in my mind, it comes along with joy and cheerful moments (followed by thoughts of respect and admiration). I just can\'t see him \"evil\" (how you define it).

Now, I think we should end this discussion before it will end up being far far away from its meaning. I guess we all said our opinions, and because they might differ doesn\'t mean this \"becomes something personal\". I\'d be forced to believe you\'re crazy then, you know, the \"there\'s always a conspiracy\" type. To finish this, I still hold my statements, no matter what you shall say. Those are your personal opinions, you got mine.

See ya in\'game.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Annah
What means \"logical\"?

Coming as an outcome of process of reasoning, or standing in accordance with it.

Originally posted by Annah
It\'s called irony.

I beg to differ, it\'s called flaming.

Originally posted by Annah Let me add something. Look, an \"evil\" character, Sangwa. Don\'t know about you, but when the name \"Sangwa\" comes in my mind, it comes along with joy and cheerful moments (followed by thoughts of respect and admiration). I just can\'t see him \"evil\" (how you define it).

And you\'d expect evil character which strives to conquer as much as possible on the path of politics and careful planning to behave how, exactly?

[seperot]

*Seperot wonders in throws a dagger into annah\'s head then snaps Draklar\'s neck*


mmh....good

*Seperot notes other people are looking*


err....for my next trick i will juggle flaming nebuduck\'s

*Seperot starts juggling for the shiny people*

[Sangwa]

And you\'d expect evil character which strives to conquer as much as possible on the path of politics and careful planning to behave how, exactly?

Great, at least someone understands my character ^^.

Sangwa\'s a perfectionist, so he wishes to have his plans well traced before making any kind of move.
His actions are all contributions to a cause that our social group finds evil: conquering the world, even through forceful means. So I don\'t think it\'s wrong to claim he is evil.

Anyway, I think roleplayers sometimes care too much with the Good vs Evil stuff. But as long as it\'s fun, I shan\'t complaing too much .

[ylikone]

I haven\'t been around long and I haven\'t read this entire thread, but I can say that I met someone in the death realm library today who claimed to be really evil named \"Alhana\" (I think that was it anyway) with a secret guild called \"Infectum Animus\".  Claimed to be controlling 4 guilds toward spreading evil in the lands.

[Karyuu]

If you\'re reviving an old thread, the least you could do is read the entire thing :P Please.