Originally posted by zanzibar
The description of Vod?l is extremely vague. He obviously isn\'t all powerful or all knowing, unless he intended for Laanx and Talad to fall from grace as they did. \"God of future events\" might simply mean that he happened to cause certain things to get into motion, that he has the tendancy to set things in motion, or he has the responsible to set things in motion. It might simply mean that he knows the future, the near future, the distant future, possible futures, etc. It\'s extremely vague
Yes, Vod?l doesn\'t seem to ever have revealed himself to anyone in or outide Yliakum. To me it is like he is an ancient god who either has lots of other realms under his control, or has no need / desire for this anymore.
Originally posted by zanzibar
and open minded.
I seriously don\'t think this qualifier has any sort of place here. In fact, I think this is being used way too extensively recently, and almost never in a case that justifies it. Vagueness doesn\'t equal open mindedness, nor anything else that may be positive. Being vague is positive only in very few instances and this certainly isn\'t one of them.
Originally posted by zanzibar
But yes, they\'re the only official Gods. Certain guilds have brought in references to outside Gods and beings (Dragons courtesy of the Dragon Council, Anubis courtesy of Deus ex Trucido, the Latin language thanks to various guilds and individuals). People keep trying to make references to gods of greek, egyptian, and norse mythology and they got shot down since the references are OOC and do not exist in the planeshift world.
People are thursting for a more complex and diverse theology.
Most of all people need, as has been discussed on another thread already, details, facts and myths about the existing religions that actually appy to the people, things that can actually be
used in everyday RP.
What is in the history is for the most part divine knowledge, i.e., knowledge not even the highest priests of both Talad or Laanx would possess. I was quite surprised to hear NPCs talking about specific events, like Laanx trying to force his will onto the first Klyros, which is something noone would know of.
However, this thing isn\'t that usable in RP either, and for the most part only some general aspects of the god\'s personalities could be assumed to be actually known by the Yliaki, which isn\'t nearly enough to base a religion and certainly not worshipping upon.
Originally posted by zanzibar
I think the solution is in books. Release books of tales and short stories which reference numerous Gods and divine beings. Give them character, give them colour, give them substance. They don\'t have to be \"real\" like Talad and Laanx are, they would be part of the mythology of the locals.
Yes, this would be one way. Eventually, the story section also needs some additions, but the books are more RP.
From what Talad posted on the results of the MB vs CB thread, though, I get it that these things are actually being worked on ATM, and some of the books in the library already contain things that were not taken from the website, which would be in line with that assumption.
Originally posted by zanzibar
The problem is that here on Earth, we have six to ten millenia to draw on for our civilization while the planeshift world only has around 750 years. Mythology would necessarily be drawn from the cultures outside of the immediate planeshift world and would be based in the cultures that the individual races emmigrated from and later passed down in a written and oral tradition.
Yes, the history
does make one or two references to some races having had other religions before they came to Yliakum, and that they gave up on them in favor of Laanx or Talad.
The black Flame is out of the equation because it appeared outside Yliakum and only after Laanx and his followers (literally
) left that place, so it can\'t be known in Yliakum.
Vod?l doesn\'t seem to have even been known to any of the races even before they went to Yliakum, so he isn\'t available for RP use as well.
Then we have the reference to \"Other, older gods\", who aren\'t mentioned and may or may not be, in part, those previously worshipped by some races. No reference is given that any god besides Laanx or Talad ever had any sort of interest in Yliakum or it\'s inhabitants, meaning that religions devoted to them would have become mere traditions without actual function upon entering Yliakum, which would also explain the ease with which these were forgotten and abandoned, if we assume that the other gods had interacted with their followers like Laanx and Talad (making temples, smiting people, etc.).
As has also been established on the other thread, the gods of Yliakum are very different from the gods that are popular IRL ATM. In fact, they are very similar to the roman, greek or whatever gods in that they are highly human, have the same flaws and desires as humans, with the only difference being that they possess an immense, but infinite, amount of power and possibly knowledge.
None is omniscient, as their stupidity and lack of knowledge for what will come proves. None of them is omnipotent either, as their need to rely on the crystals power and that of other, mor powerful but still not all powerful gods proves. An all-powerful gow would not have one single domain, like Vod?l has, either. An all-powerful and all-knowing god could only exist on it\'s own, as more than one would not make any sort of sense and wouldn\'t be discernible in any way, which would mean they\'d appear as one anyway.
With that, all your questions are answerable:
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Laanx and Talad were Gods before the races ever existed in Yliakum.\"
=> Why were there creatures in the big cave and the stone labyrinths unnoticed by them and who created them?
There have been other gods before them, who created the other creatures. One can also assume that the other gods may or may not have tried to destroy each other\'s creations, creating hostile beings to do that. Gods are just as dumb as RL humans.
Adding to that, given that the crystal had a mutating effect on the Nolthrir, similar effects, albeit smaller, or plain common evolution may have occured without the gods intervention (or even knowledge), making for other creatures to come into existance.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Laanx and Talad were beautiful and harmonious; they were inquisitive and always looking for new knowledge to enrich their eternal lives.\"
=> Who gave them \"birth\"? are they gods without ending but with a beginning? And if the latter, who was the first god?
It isn\'t strictly necessary to be born in the conventional sense. It may be possible that gods just come into existance \"by accident\".
The theory that gods start to exist because people make them up and start believing in them doesn\'t fit Laanx and Talad well, but it might nontheless have spawned some of the other, older gods who in turn might have created Laanx and Talad.
Also, it is possible that common beings eventually became gods, whioch could also be how Laanx and Talad came into existance.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> Both are not omnipotent nor omniscient. => What about the other, ancient gods?
There is no indication of any of them to be either omniscient or omnipotent. They\'re like the ancients gods (greek, roman, etc.): fallible and quite human.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> What is the definition of \"god\" here?
AFAICS, it can be only \"A being that is immortal and highly powerful and that can be harmed only by other similar beings.\". In fact, by this definition, it qould be quite possible (though still extremely improbable) for an Yliaki to become a god itself.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Laanx was a tall and perfectly shaped female with long, white hair as silky as the threads of a spider\'s web. Her lunar skin reflected the azure beams of the crystal and refracted the light into hypnotic patterns as alluring as her dancing, ruby-coloured eyes. A thin silver band clasped Laanx\'s left ankle. She was evanescent, cold and yet yielding, light and ethereal like the evening air.
Talad was like an ebony statue, with powerful muscles and long, proportioned bones. Thick black curls cascaded down over his broad shoulders and down his back, and a thick gold armlet clasped Talad\'s right bicep. Talad was solid, warm and determined, dense and impetuous as a river of molten lava.\"
=> They are not \"spiritual\" nor \"ethereal\" but physical. => Where did they live?
Given that this description may still not refer to physical existance, it is possibel that they existed and lived anywhere. Likely they travelled the universe until stumbling onto the planet containing what became Yliakum. The history seems to hint at this:
Originally posted on the history section
Guided by an ancient and powerful god, named Vod?l, god of the future events, they discovered one quiet planet with a crystal column full of energy and mystery.
This means that 1) Vod?l showed them the place (which makes it possible that he, being the god of future events, either foresaw or intended to happen what eventually happened, proving that he is fallible and prone to selfishness just like any other being and 2) they did not originate at the planet Yliakum is in.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Guided by an ancient and powerful god, named Vod?l, god of the future events\"
=> Is this god omniscient? What are his attributes? his background?
Not necessarily. He merely is more powerful, with powers that specialise in \"divination\" (nice pun
), but he doesn\'t have to be omniscient for that. It wouldnot even be possible, because otherwise he would not only be god of future events, but of everything, since he quite obviously has selfish desires and knowing / being able to shape what will happen would render efforts and powers of all other gods useless and ineffective.
Originally posted by amogorkon
Talad and Laanx realized the nature of the crystal and wanted to create a prosperous dominion with people to worship them.
=> Why? Because they are lonely? Because they want to control? What are their reasons? Just for fun?
The remainder of the history hints that they indeed desired to be worshipped. Fame and glory. Lust for control likely as well.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Other gods, older and more powerful than they, told them about great tasks they would have to perform when their worshippers became ready to follow their directions.\"
=> Who are the other gods? If they are more powerful than Talad and Laanx, why don`t they reveal their existence to the people of Yliakum? Why not worship them?
Likely they already have their followers elsewhere and don\'t bother. Maybe they even have some sort of territorial agreement.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"[...]young gods Laanx and Talad didn\'t ask any other details, or pay much attention to the warnings.\"
=> They are not wise, not to say stupid.
Nowhere the history says they were wise. In fact I fully agree that they are stupid and should be demoted from divine-ness.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> They are young. => again, what is the definition of god here? how can a god be young?
Given that a god can come into existance at any point in time, one can easily be \"young\" compared to other gods. The roman and other religions provide more similarity.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"[...] where other creatures were already lurking in the dark.\"
=> Where did they come from? Who created them?
Other gods and evolution, likely, as stated above.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Talad and Laanx prayed to Vod?l to lure some races from the other gods and to bring them to Yliakum. Vod?l agreed theirr requests, but in exchange wished for Talad to become one of his servants and Laanx to become one of his lovers. Laanx and Talad accepted the exchange, because Vod?l was a kind master and a pleasant consort.\"
=> Why would a god need a servant and a lover?
Because they\'re as imperfect and human as the greek and other gods. The concept of perfection and omnipotence / omniscience is only comparatively recent.
Originally posted by amogorkon
=> If those gods do have needs and wishes like normal mortals what are those wishes and needs? Are those gods mortal/killable?
Likely they are not killable by means other than divine powers, but I assume that they are, at least in theory, killable. Given that they existed before they were worshipped, lack of worshipping wouldn\'t likely make them cease to exist, though.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"[...] a tempest of chaos burst forth from the god\'s hands and hit Laanx on her face, penetrating deeply into her body, and she became forever disfigured.\"
=> She is a god, why can`t she heal herself or get healed by a more powerful god?
Because god does not equal being all powerful. She would likely be killed by extreme force and divine powers.
The distinction \"divine power\" and \"extremely powerful\" is quite blurry, which is completely in-line with mortals in theory becoming gods and gods coming into existance by other means. The crystal\'s power that Talad used can obviously not classify as \"divine\", therefore it must be concluded that extreme power is not just in it\'s effect indistinguishable from divine power, and likely is the exact same thing. It is no coincidence that both the gods and the Yliakii use the very same power: the crystal\'s magic.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"There must be a remedy. Come back and we will be One again.\"
=> When were they One? Nowhere in the history is mentioned something similar.
Being one refers to them being tight friends and likely lovers. Unity in spirit, so to speak. This was the case in the beginning of the history.
Originally posted by amogorkon
\"Many other times Laanx rejected Talad\'s entreaties to reconcile with him.\"
=> Laanx became a \"he\". I never thought about a god having a gender. => Why should a god need a gender if he (or better \"it\" ) can replicate with a word/ritual?
They can\'t replicate. Even if, it is still possible that, given the other similarity to humans, they actually would draw pleasure from physical love even if it doesn\'t serve reproductive purposes. This is, again, highly similar to roman, greek, etc. mythology.
Also, the issue whether Laanx became male isn\'t as clear as it seems, and in fact I am inclined (even without the tipsy bug
) to believe that she didn\'t
actually change gender.
Originally posted by amogorkon
EDIT: And to give respect to the \"theodicy\" mentioned in the title:
Where did the evil come from in the world of Yliakum? Just because of this accident?
No, the evil in Yliakum comes from the races that were created or brought to Yliakum. Since the gods are obviously flawed, they are just as likely to create flawed creatures. Also, the creatures they did not create obviously can be evil as well.
Diaboli can be seen as comparatively evil, and since there is no notion of any race being not evil, but there is the notion of differences in the history, one must conclude that every race and individual bears within it both good and evil.
Originally posted by zanzibar
I don\'t consider community story writing to be cannon.
Indeed. If it was, then we\'d have to accept every single made-up god (and in fact,
everything any random player comes up with, like vampires and such), which would clearly destroy PS. Therefore, the only things that can be reliably used are what are stated on the website, and maybe the books in the library. The char creation doesn\'t fit in nearly well enough to be considered official AFAICS.
