npc responce to general semantics

[c-2501]

this may be a post more for one of the technical forums so move it if you like:)

the problem is this the npc\'s understanding of phrases spoken to them is very limited.  one examle;

you tell an npc:
\" (other npc) needs the blue dye\"
responce:
the npc doesnt know what your talking baout

you tell npc:
\" (other npc) needs the dye\"
responce:
again the npc doesnt understand

third time lucky you tell npc:
\" (other npc) wants the dye\"
responce:
suddenly the world becomes illuminated and the npc knows what your talking about

ok so im not a programmer and i dont know how difficult this is to implement but what you all must realise by reading this is that one of the simplest quests in the game is made virtually impossible by the fact that the npc\'s seem only to respond to speciffic phrases.
this can be very frustrating especially for new players, who will often quickly become bored by these sorts of issues.

fixing this \"problem\" would, i think, make the game playing  experience alot better

P.s.   i also tried \" (other npc) wants the blue dye\" but this also failed to get a responce

[dfryer]

Yeah, we need a good dialogue system.  It\'s been done before in other games/programs, so it\'ll probably be fixed in the future.  Right now I can barely stand talking to NPCs.

[teonancatl]

I agree, this problem needs to be a high priority. An RPG style atmosphere dosent really work when your wasting time trying to word something to an NPC. I would prefer an \'old school\' system like what was used in the old ultima games etc wheras you could just qoute keywords from the conversation and the NPC would understand. I think if the developers do want to stick with this \'natural speaking\' style it will require a lot of work to give each NPC a broad enough vocabulary to be useful to anyone.

[Draklar]

Really old subject.

Well I\'ve never been a fan of the PS NPC communication system. I seriously doubt it can ever become something that won\'t be a distraction for role-playing, especially when we talk about characters that use slang or are simply dumb. People who play such characters will be forced to step ooc and talk as normal person would.

I much prefer Fallout sort of communication, where you picked answers from list. Whereas if you had low intelligence, your answers would lack proper grammar and generally be dumb... And the NPCs would keep calling you stupid and make fun of you. While high intelligence and charisma gave you possibility to solve quests of a technical nature..

[Kythag]

The old Scott Addams text adventures(among others) utilized two word phrases(such as go south, climb tree) and these were difficult to say the least.  Having a phrasing system that holds three and four words can be nigh impossible(unless you get lucky).

For the preservation of the current system, the key word system seems to fit best.  Since there are several words that would fit, you could require getting the right word.  The name of npc, name of item wanted, or giving the item required would make the quest as difficult as any side quest could be.  I would even applaud a system where the phrasing takes a certain grammar structure(such as npc wants item or i want item).  The confusion from the current system comes from MPCs responding to phrases with different structures.  \"Give me a quest\" and \"NPC wants item\" are two different grammar structures.  If it was \"Give me (Thing wanted here)\" or \"I want (thing)\"/\"NPC wants (thing)\",  the quests would be at a more appropriate level.

It is an alpha test.  I am sure they are working on an appropriate solution.

Kythag

[Jakob]

Well, your more likely to try to get a quest from a PC aren\'t you?  They\'re much easier to talk to.  It\'s a conspiracy I tell you, a conspiracy!.  On the other hand I think that the idea of the NPC communicatin system is good, it\'s just not efficient.  Any group capable of making Planeshift is capable of, with time, making effective NPCs in my opinion.

[Draklar]

I just noticed another disadvantage of such system while writing a list-based dialogue.

Planeshift\'s conversations with NPCs completely lack dynamic. I can see two reasons of that.

First, because you have to turn your thoughts into a non-complicated sentance. I doubt that\'ll ever change. Fluent answers which express feelings of a character aren\'t possible with a system like that.

Second, the texts NPCs are saying are too long. It\'s one of rules in storywriting to make the dialogue texts short. Otherwise they become uninteresting, mostly dull. But that can\'t be changed since going towards beginning of quest through a normal dialogue would require much more talking from the player character. Let\'s assume NPC actually have a large understanding. Still, possibility of misspelling or finding a hole would be much bigger with a dynamic dialogue. As a result the dialogue wouldn\'t be so dynamic after all.

It\'s just a thing I noticed when trying to write as good dialogue as I can. At one point I thought it would be cool to see such fluent and feelings-ridden dialogues in PS. But then I thought \"wait, that would be impossible\".

[Hirato]

someone did bring up the fallout chat interface?
I would just like to point out that fallout has a ask about button where you cna make your characetr ask about something.

I think like one from wizardry 8 will be good, you can select keywords from the text, type key words to ask about and a list that contains every word that an NPC responded correctly too.

lets see there are 2 NPCs in that game you ask one about a certain destructive item and one will say \"since you know its name i\'ll presume you know what it does\"
and the other can tell you exactly what it does and all the others can say they don\'t know what you\'re talking about.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Hirato
I think like one from wizardry 8 will be good, you can select keywords from the text, type key words to ask about and a list that contains every word that an NPC responded correctly too.

The problem with such system is that it\'s still awfully dull. As if your character lacked any personality and just asked the questions. It just doesn\'t have the fun factor and can be used only as a way to get a quest. Talking with NPCs should be fun by itself and really felt like a real, interesting conversation.

[Cha0s]

That\'s the job of the RMs, right now. You never know when an NPC might all of a sudden come to life and start talking to you...

[eggplantboy]

Hi all,

It seems like this issue will be quite difficult to resolve and will probably take some time. In the meantime, if it\'s not too dumb an idea, perhaps Jayosee could sell a \"Common toung to Hyadlaaish\" phrasebook or something of the sort. Just an idea...

[Kythag]

The dialogue system can include an information system based on certain phrases.  In real life, we always say the same thing to find out about something.  Example phrases:

1] \"How do I get to ....\"

2] \"Do you know...\"

3] \"Do you know about...\"

4] \"I am looking for...\"

Again, I point to grammar structure to give more realistic dialogue:

Example:  There is a character, Thom, needing to purchase candles.  He sends you, so the phrase would always be: \"Thom needs candles.\"

[vialick]

Perhaps a solution to the problem would be a database of synonyms, \"where is\" could also be \"how do I get to\" to \"the location of\" etc. With a fair bit of effort I\'m sure a learning system could come in. After several people try a the same/similar phrase with no responce, it could be analysed by a GM and then linked to the right NPC responce, or a seperate one could be written. That way the common phrases could have a guaranteed response after a short while.

[Karyuu]

Logs of everything an NPC doesn\'t understand is sent to (or is accessible by) certain devs, that analyze the results. The plan right now is to use WordNet to allow more realistic communication - basically NPCs will have \"access\" to a dictionary for synonyms and hypernyms, making them more capable of understanding things no matter how a player may say it.

[zanzibar]

What about the NPC feeding the player information based on keywords?  If Thom needs candles, and you have thom and candles in the same message, the NPC might say \"Thom... candles... does thom need candles?\"