The Shaded Whisper

[Cyl]

good to know, .... should solve a few problems of mine.

[seperot]

zanzibar as i think i\'ve pointed out before....good and evil is in the eye of the beholder.....so to some \"good\" people this is an efficant solution to others it is not its up to them to choose not me

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by seperot
zanzibar as i think i\'ve pointed out before....good and evil is in the eye of the beholder.....so to some \"good\" people this is an efficant solution to others it is not its up to them to choose not me

Trust me, you don\'t have to convince me that good and evil are subjective.

[Draklar]

People seeing things differently doesn\'t equal good and evil being relative.
It\'s like when someone who is colour-blind says that a green pencil is red, the colour of the pencil automatically becomes relative :P

Pseudo-philosophers :P

Seperot, replace \'good\' with \'right\' and \'evil\' with \'wrong\' and your sentence will make sense ;)
I think your clients would rather think \"I do the right thing\" (or wrong, if in exceptional case someone crosses his moral values, forced to do it).
We\'ll talk about it on msn someday \\o/

[Sangwa]

Oh im sure not just evil people will use this service.. Why should only an evil guild get an edge on the Good guilds? the good guilds should get an advantage on the evil to know of there attacks too!

Then I don\'t think this will contribute to the presence of evil in Yliakum at all .

Good and Evil are relative only as long as they\'re being discussed by different social groups. Personal opinions have little weight, seeing that these are social concepts.
So, should you ever wonder if something\'s good or evil, try to think what your (our) society would think of it.

Nowadays we don\'t need (pseudo)philosphers to discuss stuff like this. That\'s why we\'ve got Sociologists and Psycologists.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Sangwa
Then I don\'t think this will contribute to the presence of evil in Yliakum at all :P.

Shady business becoming part of culture of Yliakum would bring much more to the evil side than a guild which is seperate from it and can be ridden off by simple force rather than global culture-changing movement...

[Valbrandr]

So this one is serious?  This is not for the average cake lover eh?  Hmm, are you going to try and bring it ingame sep?  Because in the time ive been playing you seem not to have the time .

[seperot]

I\'ve been in little bits....i dont see anyone so play kill the rats...then die cause i cant be bothered to leave the DR...then play again a few days later and repeate..

what i would like is if somebody told me there ingame so i could have out n stuff

[Sangwa]

Shady business becoming part of culture of Yliakum would bring much more to the evil side than a guild which is seperate from it and can be ridden off by simple force rather than global culture-changing movement...

What? Didn\'t you say chaotic-good would also benefit from this?
People will stay as shadier, they will just have better means to succeed in it. How can a guild of mercenaries spawn evil?

[Draklar]

It\'s quite simple, really.

When you\'re offering such services, they become more common. something that was distant from a culture, now becomes a part of it. At first you have only shady characters using those, but things are changing. When something is common, people are more certain to reach for it. Assassination stops being seen as something so utterly wrong. New ideas emerge. Murder the tyrant, discourage the merchant who became a strong competition for you, or find out how come he\'s so good at everything. With time more and more characters would use such services and the culture would change into more dark one. What would be seen as \'evil\', might change quite a bit from the real meaning of this word.  New generations, raised up in such environment would have disturbed view on what is good and what is evil. They would see assassination and spying as something much more normal than what it was considered by a generation before. The services would gain more and more costumers, eventually turning Yliakum into a dark world, where trust is no longer present in such a high form. Friend would spy on friend, just to make sure he doesn\'t plan to murder him.

Influencing culture is the best way to gain control in a long run. You can use force only when your power is amazing or when you want fast results. You have to keep in mind however, that people will unite against you. The former way would rather bring you followers.

From economic point of view, you\'d have a stable, self-enlarging market, where more and more types of characters decide to use your services. If dealing with shady characters only, you don\'t influence anything. There\'s already a market in a certain form and it won\'t change in any way. That is unless you could come up with new services. But even then, as long as you limit yourself to dark characters, you don\'t influence world in any stronger way, nor do you join any stable market.
Even when good guilds might decide to go on a hunt for evil, the Whisper would remain much more safe, seeing as it might be accepted by a lot of commoners. The will to fight it wouldn\'t be strong enough.
And thus, in case of good side taking a lead, there\'s still one source of evil that wouldn\'t be really hunted to death.

[Sangwa]

Oh, so it\'s this easy to fool Good people?

Predictions are just predictions. It depends if someone would find them to be evil. Or if the \"middle agent\" would be slain.
I don\'t think you\'re able to accuretly predict the future, so I still don\'t think this will improve the presence of evil, based on the fact that only people who are already shady will be using it. There might be some exceptions, sure, but they won\'t be more than that.

When you claim your guild is a \"Place where you can hire Yliakum\'s finest for whatever your needs may be, espionage, thievery, assassination, or what ever the client has in mind\"  you\'re already defying some people\'s moral.
For example, I guess the Defenders would be opposed to this commerce of death and disorder.

[Cyl]

Hmm, that way, organisations could war against other without putting uninvolved persons at risk, ..., by a contest of wealth (or \"who can pay the assasins?\")...

It is not such an evil thing at all in my eyes just discrete.

[Draklar]

Originally posted by Sangwa
I don\'t think you\'re able to accuretly predict the future,

I am, by looking at history and basic human psychology.

Mirth is the goody-good guild which opposes all evil-doing and stuff, right? What did they do in the Cabal age, when spying was at its peak? They spied as well. So did Rangers. And the Dark Empire, despise opposing such form of spying at first.

Is it easy to fool good people? Yes.
Fooling people is easy in general. That\'s what nowadays marketing is all about. Maybe not as much fooling, but strong influencing for sure. And medias? That is a big dose of turning people into fools. Not to mention internet sites, where people can put all sorts of weird content and some of the others will actually believe it.

Back to the dark ages, burning times? That is a good example of how easy it is to fool people. All you do is throw a well made propaganda of what is good and what is evil and suddenly people are cheering you for using political move to get rid of people you don\'t like.
And then you have holy wars, in which you send insane number of children doomed to be slaughtered by your foes, or send army yourself, slaughtering whole city. Still holy.
Or accuse warrior-merchant organisation of devil worshipping.
When pope was throwing a curse at a country, people actually believed it would work. A king would be overthrown just because he annoyed the pope.
As long as you know what you\'re doing, fooling people isn\'t hard at all.

[seperot]

Another more easy to swallow note as to why no one will bother to attack the Whisper is they only know me anyone else is unknown....plus spying on us is impossible since my own members wont know who else is in the guild

But it seems i cant slide much by Draklar >.>

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Draklar
People seeing things differently doesn\'t equal good and evil being relative.
It\'s like when someone who is colour-blind says that a green pencil is red, the colour of the pencil automatically becomes relative


Pseudo-philosophers

Seperot, replace \'good\' with \'right\' and \'evil\' with \'wrong\' and your sentence will make sense
I think your clients would rather think \"I do the right thing\" (or wrong, if in exceptional case someone crosses his moral values, forced to do it).
We\'ll talk about it on msn someday \\o/

On pencils and colour:  Colour does not exist except as an idea.  Colour only exists in the mind.  What light has is \"Frequency\", not colour.

To one person, a certain frequency inspires a certain colour.  To another person, the same frequency inspires a different colour.  The colour does not objectively exist in the pencil.  It is, literally, in the eye of the beholder.

For good and evil, a materialist or positivist world does not have such things.  In that world, all that exists are ideas that belong to people, and those ideas are relative, malleable, fickle, and evolving.  If you make some sort of assumptive, prescriptive, non-relative value statement, then good and evil adopt an objective social reality.  If that statement or conclusion is rooted in objective fact, if it\'s \"really real\", then good and evil have an objective reality period.  But such things are difficult or impossible to prove since you\'re getting into the area of metaphysics.