"The end justifies the means"

[WiseKran]

Nicolo Machiavelli who wrote \"The Prince\" in 1915, suggested that the ruler must do anything it takes to stay in power.
The end Justifies the means.

Did the policies of Otto von Bismarck coincide with those suggested by Machiavelli?


Dont ask how this came up, But I was arguing with one of my friends about that quote, and somehow we ended up talking about Otto von Bismarck.

What is your stance on this?

 Frederick the Great, Louis XIV, Napoleon I, and Otto von Bismarck have read \"The Prince\" as well as alot of other rulers I haven\'t named.    

Did Otto von bismarck take advice from the book, did he follow the policies of Machiavelli.    As far as I know, its still debated, as I tried to find out about it.

[WiseKran]

*crickets*




lots of views, no replies. 0.0

[steuben]

it was a bit earlier the 1915, that it was written.

but it wasn\'t, anything to maintain power. it was more about the judicious use of power, money, and violence to maintain power.

[Godfrey]

Originally posted by WiseKran

Nicolo Machiavelli who wrote \"The Prince\" in 1915, suggested that the ruler must do anything it takes to stay in power.
The end Justifies the means.

ITYM 1513.  

But that\'s quite an interesting reading of the text; Macchiavelli spends a great deal of time discussing the things one should not do if one wishes to stay in power.

Compare Macchiavelli\'s list of the five rules Louis XII broke, contributing (in Macchiavelli\'s estimation) to his downfall, and compare it to von Bismarck\'s actions -- if he read The Prince, he didn\'t view it as gospel truth, but picked and chose the advice he wished to follow.

[WiseKran]

Whoops, sorry about the date. I dont know what I was thinking. considering Machiavelli died in 1527. lol

but it wasn\'t, anything to maintain power. it was more about the judicious use of power, money, and violence to maintain power.

When I said anything, what I really meant was extreme measures, or immoral actions.

and use of power, money, manipulation, and violence are all in that category

[steuben]

machiavelli doesn\'t preclude such actions. but, what he does seem to say about them is this. you must be sure that the action will not work against you.

[WiseKran]

To be sure something does not work against you you must first do something, that you will be sure does not work against you.

So he is saying these things indirectly, yes?

[Thoronador]

Originally posted by WiseKran
Nicolo Machiavelli who wrote \"The Prince\", suggested that the ruler must do anything it takes to stay in power.
The end Justifies the means.

Did the policies of Otto von Bismarck coincide with those suggested by Machiavelli?

Well, I did not read \"The Prince\".
But the question should not really be, whether Bismarck did anything it takes to stay in power, because (according to the constitution of this time) Bismarck was not really the ruler. The ruler was the Emperor (at this time Wilhelm I.), and he was able to appoint and dismiss the Chancellor (Bismarck) whenever he wanted.
But this is just as a remark. If you want to discuss the policy of Bismarck, one should probably divide it into two parts: before 1870/71 and afterwards.
Before 1871 most efforts were to unite the different German countries under the leadership of Prussia. In 1871, after the victory over France, Wilhelm I. was crowned German Emperor in Versailles, and thus the German Empire was established, and Bismarck was appointed Chancellor of the German Empire.
Now one could possibly talk about anything it takes to stay in power. One of the main goals of Bismarcks foreign policy was to keep peace in Europe. The reason was, that Germany would hardly benefit from a war, but it could lose much and a war could cause disturbance in the domestic policy. And, another reason, Germany had quite difficult contracts with Russia and Austria. In case Prussia would wage war against Austria (or vice versa), Bismarck would have been quite in a mess....