It saddens both my wife and I?K

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

Why can?\'t some just play the game - rather than try and rule the game?
Why can?\'t some give constructive critique... rather than destructive smites?  

When role playing, if someone cannot articulate their actions or speech in character - we give them time; we call for a [pause] in the action. This is to allow them the space to participate to the fullest by explaining/clarifying what they mean?K rather than shun them as say \'that is just stupid\' or \'go away you are ruining our role-play\'.    Also if there is other Role Play going on, that leeks into our Role Play, we incorporate it, welcome it with open arms... rather than just ignore it or worse still, have a go at them for allegedly spamming their chat windows.   If they have a go at us for interfering with their Role Play?K we are compassionate, and explain that we do not mean to ruin it for them, and if possible, without ruining our \'in character\' actions try to move our action away from theirs.  If there are players who happen upon us or ask for help, we invite them to join in our role-play.  We even take the time to /tell them the setting before them to help them settle in, if they don\'t wish to join we try to /tell them pointers to answer their request for help.  We never tell another character how to react to what you try to do to them, we suggest what we are trying to do, and leave it up to them to either play along with it or react in character another way.  For example, rather than saying \'Lolitra restrains [name] and grapples him/her to the floor\' we would say \'Lolitra tries to restrain [name] by grappling him/her to the floor\' leaving it up to the player named to react as he sees fit within his character.  We also respect magic - but only if it is role-played well.  You can?\'t expect it to be taken seriously if you just say I cast this or that without thought of how long such a spell would take?K or what semantics would be needed, otherwise it just takes the magic out of magic.  If someone is abusive to obstructive towards our role-play, we use /tell to ask him or her to stop, and explain why we have asked.  Only if they persist do we call for the help of a GM, but even then... they are always welcome to join in, if they are willing to participate by at least trying to employ some simple etiquettes that we try to stick to, and desist in their inappropriate ways.

These etiquettes are:

We put all Out of Character chat in []
We never tell anyone how he or she should act.
We try to be descriptive of your actions to give others a chance to react well.
we try to NEVER be abusive Out of Character to another player, it is just unacceptable.
We give others a chance and don??t always press for your own way to work.
We try to be encouraging... even if our character(s) is/are evil, and give encouragement in [ooc] or /tells.
And if you don\'t like to role-play - why are you in PlaneShift anyway?

A good debate is:
This is my understanding of what is said [maybe quote] and put forward your understanding ?V do not assume you are speaking for others, because inevitably you aren\'t.
This is my slant/idea/beliefs on the topic and my reasoning behind it and facts are generally better here. [There should be no need to name names and saying you are stupid, or \"that is rubbish... \" is not constructive at all?K rather \"that idea is flawed because of this\"] other wise you points become lost in the clouds of derision, and others won?\'t see them for what you mean.

Yeah why can\'t they just play the game instead of giving \"rules\" for people to follow. lol.

hehehe...  just had to put the quote here as it was soo funny and very truthful... and have ammended the wording of this post as a result... but hey we are only human, contrary to popular belief....

And if you post on a threat you must expect to get a response, but you deserve to have it put to you civilly.

In PlaneShift, by this simple standard do we play, plot and scheme our undemanding way.

Why have we said this? What is our point?
Well answer this?K Why are people leaving claiming to be shunned for poor English? Why is it that there are people who will not join with others in role-play for no given reason?  Why in the forums do debates consistently fall to finger pointing and naming names?
But don??t try to explain to us your answers?K more so?K why not think,  have I ever done this by means foul, or just through a silly misunderstanding? and take the time to apologise.

We are sure that we are not as just and pure, as we would like to think and have most likely upset others in our time here. So now we take this opportunity to say sincerely that we never meant any ill to you whoever you are, and please, please do not hold a grudge, forgive our flaming ways, and together lets enjoy future gaming days.


Let us celebrate the New Year refreshed and together... not alone.  HAPPY NEW YEAR EVERY ONE!

[Draklar]

With each thread like that, I\'m more and more happy my character is a loner..

[Trinx]

Yeah why can\'t they just play the game instead of giving \"rules\" for people to follow. lol.

Not that there is anything wrong with your rules.  They sound fair enough.  Just that it kinda sounds funny with what you said to start.

[Induane]

You all sure ask alot of why\'s! Why can\'t people always be nice and respectful seems to be the main why though - and it sorta underlies the others.

Answer: Everyone is different. Each person grows up with their own belief systems based on environment, parenting, genetics and personal choice.  The reason for this is that we live in a somewhat free world.  We have freedome to make daily decisions with no consequences readily noticable.  This is good and bad, and it all comes down to how peoples lives have conditioned them to react to certain situations.

The reason that it seems that the majority can\'t behave is threefold.  One is that you are wishing that everyone had a few common characteristics shared by everyone ever, and that is just not realistic.  Thus many groups of conformity form rather than one.  Second is that even if they are the minority these people are the ones heard most loudly and most often.  The third is culture.

Culture.

Many different cultures exist around the world.  A culture is a semi static viewpoint shared by a populus based on history and upbringing.  A few common beliefs coupled with geography and social conditioning hold them together.  The issue is that we still don\'t have any perfect cultures.  Cultures tend to have flaws apparant in them which lead to a general type of behavior.  This can be construed the wrong way as its easy to look at a canibal and say yuckky you eat people gross.  But really its only apalling to you because of cultural social conditioning.  To the cannibal it is normal routine, and is far from apalling.  To some people smoking marajuanna is moronic and morally reprehensible   - to others a normal daily thing.  It doesn\'t make things right or wrong necessarily, but when complaining about behaviors it is important to take a step back and realize that we all have our vices, and we are all different.  If we all behavied the same way life would be dull, and we wouldn\'t be any different from animals.  Free will gives us this luxury and curse of daily decisions based on more than instinct, and as a result there is alot that can go very right and very wrong.

So take a step back, look at a broader view, and realize that not everyone is interested in rp\'ing the way you do, and that what seems rude to you might seem fine to them.  If someone walked up to me and said please stop smiling I find that offensive - I\'d be confused and well...weireded out  but that person isn\'t considering whether or not I think smiling is acceptable behavior, that person is only considering their own views on what is and isn\'t acceptable.  \"Why can\'t he just not smile like we don\'t do?\"

Well because my socially engineered, parentally influenced, environmentally affected, culturally shocked mind has come to the conclusion that smiling is a good thing.  Thats why.  I wouldn\'t recogonize a nonsmiler by their look as not everony smiles 100% of the time, so I\'d never know they hated smiling till I\'d already offended them, and at that point when they told me to stop smiling, this attack on my perceived notion of right and wrong could make me defensive.

RP how you want to - encourage others to, but don\'t judge the playing style of people in a freely open game.  Thats the job of GM\'s.  We\'re just here to be a part of the world.

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

at last, an informed and well posted reply with good points well said...  I am cheered up a bit.

But Cultural, Parental, or Other background experiences are not an excuse for being rude, or uncivil to others when interfacing with them.  And most people have a good idea on the internet what is acceptable or not.

[Trinx]

Actually the real reason people act like retards online is because if they acted like that in the real world they would have no friends, and somebody would beat the snot out of them.

Because in real life I\'ve never met anyone I couldn\'t get along with and have a conversation with.

[Kythag]

Being someone who can be quite reactionary when I feel that someone is being rude, etc., I am also prone to being the one that winds up being rude.  The problem I have with this discussion is this:

Why is it that only one side of an argument is ever asked to consider social differences?  If these people have asked someone to back off, and they are met with hostility, then the other person has committed the same error.  I believe in accepting social and cultural differences.  These exchanges allow us to see a larger world than the one we have created in our minds and possibly expand it.

I do not believe in accepting these differences when my differences are not being accepted, and that is what is truly being discussed here.  Asking someone to accept others differences when this action is not being reciprocated is not an acceptable request!  If someone is disrespecting me, my views, etc., I will try to talk reasonably to them.  If, however, they continue to be confrontational, you have only 2 choices:

1) Get confrontational back
2) Avoid them completely

In my perfect view of this PS world, I would like to see things done only one way, but what has been said is true:  There are many who have different views of playing this game.  Some are PLers(power-levellers), others are RPers(role-players), while some are enjoying PS as a 3d chat environment.  These are all perfectly valid visions(even if it does go against the designers plans).  I respect people doing these things and give them space when it doesn\'t interfere with my roleplay(this has happened once).

If others continually disrespect my views, I no longer feel obligated to respect theirs(This has yet to happen to me here, but this is second time I\'ve heard this complaint).  My point is simply:  You can\'t ask these people to respect someone\'s differences when their differences are not being respected!  I have yet to think of a perfect(or even partial) solution to this, but asking people to lie down and allow this to continue is DEFINITELY not the solution.

One of the reasons I have seen in online games that allows this kind of behavior to propagate is the lack of knowledge in HOW to stop this kind of behavior.  That is my first suggestion here:  Educate people on proper methods to get proof of abusive behavior and report it(I am the first to despise finks, but in onlline games it is only method to prevent the game from being overrun by people who find fun ruining others fun).  I don\'t mean a generic sticky, I am talking about a detailed explanation of how to take screenshots and access chat logs.  I am referring to knowing what criteria of proof is required to take action against abusive players.  With these details in each person\'s mind, there will be less \"easy targets\" for these people to take on.

I also fully expect the griefers to take great exception to my arguments.  Watch how they argue against these ideas and the subtle ways in which they throw an insult in so they can deny that it was meant as such.  There will be others with respectful tones that will stay on topic because they have valid objections to these arguments.  They are easily spotted too.  You will also see the differences in the way I react to these people.

I hope someone takes my suggestions to heart, and we travel down a road that will save a great game from the pitfalls of some many others.  Most online games never know I leave because I feel that there is no hope for them.  I am arguing this here because I am not the only one here who cares about this game.  I am also not the only one who might wish to avoid allowing the pitfalls common to online games to creep into this one.  That ios the reason I am being so vocal here and will continue to do so.

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

Why is it that only one side of an argument is ever asked to consider social differences? If these people have asked someone to back off, and they are met with hostility, then the other person has committed the same error. I believe in accepting social and cultural differences. These exchanges allow us to see a larger world than the one we have created in our minds and possibly expand it.

Kythag, please enlighten me more as to what your point is? I am at a loss... can you please expand on this so I might make an informed reply to it.  In our original post we [husband and I] were referring to general abusive behaviour, such as innapropriate bad language, name calling, and disruptive behaviour obviously designed to ruin others fun... not their cultural beliefs. Also if someone is politely asked to desist in foul/disruptive behaviour and then that person becomes more abusive - that is not acceptable behaviour in any culture I know of.. also if you are asking someone to stop and then become abusive in that request to them - that too is wholey unacceptable behaviour.

If someone is disrespecting me, my views, etc., I will try to talk reasonably to them. If, however, they continue to be confrontational, you have only 2 choices:
1) Get confrontational back
2) Avoid them completely

I would have to disagree with this as we have a third and that is to report them for abuse... if that is what they are doing.  I can\'t be sure that this is what you mean as the wording  \'Disrespecting...\' is rather vague and immotive.  Do you mean - calling you names, spamming you or just disagreeing with your playing style?

One of the reasons I have seen in online games that allows this kind of behavior to propagate is the lack of knowledge in HOW to stop this kind of behavior. That is my first suggestion here: Educate people on proper methods to get proof of abusive behavior and report it(I am the first to despise finks, but in onlline games it is only method to prevent the game from being overrun by people who find fun ruining others fun). I don\'t mean a generic sticky, I am talking about a detailed explanation of how to take screenshots and access chat logs. I am referring to knowing what criteria of proof is required to take action against abusive players. With these details in each person\'s mind, there will be less \"easy targets\" for these people to take on.

This is a great point.. and yes I have to agree.

And to just reitterate the point of the original post.. it was not to go into a debate of \'why are they doing this.. but more of\' Let\'s step back look at our own behavior and say.. oops I think I might have done this... let me say sorry\'

[Kythag]

My comments about culture were in reference to the previous references to it by Induane.  He also stated that differing beliefs can create problems.  What I was trying to do was defend the idea that understanding the beliefs of others is a two-way street.  I believe in initially trying to talk things out, but there are those in online games that simply seek their fun by spoiling others.  I do believe that reporting abuse is an option, but it is one I loathe.  I only report abuse when it has become a matter of being stalked and targetted(or the erroneous perception of it).

I was merely trying to state, as you have also, that once diplomacy fails other things must be done. It has been argued elsewhere in these forums(and I was expecting that argument to make its way here) that griefers are part of the game.  I do not believe this is acceptable.  I also had the impression that you had an ingame experience that was the inspiration for this thread.  I had an experience where I was belittled for engaging in roleplay as being disruptive to the roleplay situation.  I was adding my voice to your own that this is not acceptable.

My arguments are designed to show that there is a need for my last point.  Some of my arguments are designed to prevent someone from making a point that I was expecting to be made simply because they could.  I am actually surprised that this thread didn\'t turn into an argument about the rights of griefers to grief.  Again these points have been made elsewhere in the forum.

Finally, everything I have said was meant to defend your position and prevent you from getting flamed for it.  Few people take the time to address this issue as something that needs to be dealt with, and I was glad to hear another voice.

As far as disrespecting goes, I don\'t mind if people disagree with me, but there are those that will belittle your beliefs in various slight and less detectable ways.  That is what I was referring to when I say disrespecting.  These comments were made in reference to your comments about people calling ideas stupid or telling people that roleplay is being ruined by them.  I find this disrespectful.  When you say a person\'s ideas are stupid, you are implying a lack of respect for that person\'s intelligence.  I was agreeing that this was wrong and saying why I believe it to be wrong.

My post was also about suggesting something that would help people out who seem to be more vulnerable to griefers.  Being reactionary, I can relate to people that are more vulnerable to this kind of action.

Finally, my statement that I return abusive behavior with abusive behavior comes from my stance that reporting should be the last thing to be done.  I respect that you disagree with this, but I feel that I want to do everything in my power to resolve a situation before I go to a game staff member to complain about abusive behavior. Nine times out of ten, this doesn\'t work, but occasionally it does.  Therefore, I exhaust this option before I resort to reporting.

I hope this clarifies my position and hope that I have demonstrated that I am on your side in this matter.  Also, if anything I say has offended you, be aware it is never my intention to offend anyone(unless I feel that they are offending me, repeatedly).  I also apologize that my intentions and arguments were not stated more clearly.(I am a verbal communicator, and I sometimes do not come across well in the written word.)

[Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins]

Ahh, Now we see your point clearly, Kythag and have nothing more to say to add it or even argue, and it is very well written... so thank you for the time and effort you took in posting it.

By the way, we were not, and could not be insulted by a good argument well said.  

Have a Great New Year, and hope to see you in game.

[Induane]

I was merely trying to state, as you have also, that once diplomacy fails other things must be done.

Yep - you are right here.  At this point, one must use the provisions setup for reporting, or find other ways of resolving the problem within the boundaries of decency and the rules of the game.

Sometimes there isn\'t a decent way to deal with certain people.  Differences sometimes lead way to difficulties communicating.  Age is a factor as well.  I tend to cut the younger crowd a bit more slack as they lack life expirences and can\'t be blamed for that.  Avoiding certain people is certainly a viable alternative, but sometimes its not feasible, or they are harassive and stalkish...

The truth of the matter is that no matter what we do there will always be people around who can\'t apparantly be reasoned with and thats just a part of life.  In a world like PS you can deal with it a  bit more but the influx of people guarantees that there will always be those people around.  The trick is that the people who stay here for a long time have to learn to deal with those people because they aren\'t going to disappear no matter how well its regulated.  It isn\'t going to help to be bitter and cynical about that type of people - those people aren\'t really that important in the big scheme of things.  I think that was moogies trouble.  After years of being here and dealing with that type of people she started to feel like everyone hated her, and her posts reflected that until she was got to a breaking point.  Its easy to stand here and second guess as hindsight is always 20/20 but I think each person deals with things in different ways and we all have to learn to deal with these people without being rude.  I personally say take the high road.


All in all an excellent discussion - I thoroughly enjoyed reading through all of it.  True discussions of ideas are hard to find anywhere, fewer with people not throwing insults or just being rude.  Would that I could participate in more discussions like this!

[Araye]

You guys need to resolve this issue online.  Play it out and stop crying about it.

Just like in life, we all don\'t just get along.  Sometimes personalities just clash, no matter the intentions, that\'s life.  Role play it.

Not everyone gets along and things come across poorly when typed; adding to the drama especially with an s-load of non-native english speakers.

That\'s just the way it is.  Work it out online.  It\'ll be a fun show to watch.

[Karyuu]

That was unnecessary, Araye. The discussion was calm and mature before your post, so if you aren\'t adding anything worthwhile, don\'t add it at all.

[Trinx]

You don\'t need any reporting.  Thats just more hassle for the admins to have to deal with when they could be doing more productive things.  They just need an ignore command.

You know...

/ignore MoneySpankerTheThird

Waala!  He can no longer say anything to you, and might as well be an NPC walking around.  It\'s also fun to announce after you ignore them that you have ignored them.

Because they know they have no means of retaliation.

Like...

/say OOC Well congratulations MonkeySpanker just became the first person on my ignore list tonight!

It\'s the same feeling you get when a thread on a forum gets heated up and somebody says something insulting.  But before you read it and can fire off a response the thread gets locked.

[Karyuu]

Was there a real point to that? /ignore is already implemented anyway.