Questions about the code

[Goldir]

This question is more for developers and such but anyone with any subject knowledge is welcome to contribute...   Exactly how much code (in man hours or lines of code, etc) is required to create a new NPC?  

I want to quantify what effort is exactly required and then the information will be available for all interested persons to look up in the future.  This makes it a bit easier for others to understand why the devs can (or cannot) make a new NPC for the other players to bash on.

As far as I understand the process is broken into 4 parts. If you could tell me how much (very rough estimate) effort goes into these sections and how others can help if possible it would be great:

1)Concept Design: Coming up with the basic idea for what you want the NPC to be.  This may include concept art, backstory, possible stats, strengths and weaknesses, and rewards for defeating this beastie.

2) Character Modeling:  Designing the actual character in 3d along with animations and such.  This may be included by some in step 1.  Care must be taken to design the character and animations for all modes (combat, rest, death, etc...)

3)Coding:  The nitty gritty.  In my opinion the equivalent of putting Frankenstein\'s monster on the table and shoving a lightning rod up his arse.  Are the NPC\'s in PS coded according to a certain format or a shell?  Or is each one programmed from scratch?  What fields are there in programming an NPC.  Do you have to reprogram the NPC server as well as the actual game server to add each new NPC?  Does location factor in? Or can spawn locations just be thrown around willy nilly?

4)Implementation and fine tuning:  Try it out, either on a test server or on the real one and learn the inexpressable joy of finding out where someone in any part of the process screwed up or where conflicts are.  

Do I have it right?  Did I leave something out or get the steps out of order?

If anyone can fill in these blanks I would be really grateful.  Plus you can use a link to it every time someone asks you \"y d0nt u 4dd m0r3 NPC?? lol\" or asks how to contribute.

[stfrn]

The short answer is none. The long answer starts by asking why this wasn\'t posted in the Development Deliberation which is barely used

The NPCs in planeshift are all controled by the NPC client, a sperate program that runs on the same server as the main game server. This one program controls all NPC combat reactions, as well as most pet actions, but does not control speaking to a NPC, quests, or buying and selling. This is why NPCs are sometimes imprevious to attack, and pets do not work, the NPCclient is offline.

The NPCclient, for its flaws, will not see any code changes, as there are more important things to work on, like quests. However, a new NPC could be added at any time, assuming there was art for it, and all those other details.

[DaveG]

When it comes to \"making\" the NPC, we have a scripting system setup to do that... which isn\'t really documented much.    The part of the whole process that actually takes time is the modeling, largely due to the fact that our artists are focused on other tasks at the moment.

[Goldir]

Ah! At least that answers some of Part 3.  So about how much time does it take to add the code for a new NPC to both servers?

Sorry about not posting this in Development Deliberation.  I was going to add a request to move it but apparently you read my mind.  

The main reason I did not post this in Development Deliberation initially is due to the note on the Development Deliberation subject line. \"code contributions, build problems, CS/CEL/Cal3d problems for the latest cvs ONLY. \"

The level of technical knowledge I have and the abstract nature of the post made me think at first that it was more fit to be posted in the General Forum. Although, in hindsight, I think you were correct about the location.  I didn\'t consider this a code contribution, I only have a vague idea of what a \"build\", CS, and a cvs are, and I have no clue what CEL or Cal3d are.  This was intended to get a general idea of the effort that the devs are putting in to make this project work and how others can join in the fun.

Edit: Oops! In the time it took me to write that some of my questions were answered.  Any suggestions on programs and tutorials for 3d modeling and editing applications that are easily adapted to PS?

[Karyuu]

Blender has a good Cal3D exporter that can be used for character models, and 3DSMax is used I believe mainly for maps, although it has a sprite exporter as well. Check the Guide to 2D/3D Contribution stickied in the Fan Art section of the forum, it could be of much help :)

[AryHann]

Each NPC is first of all sketched, as you have pointed out.
This means mainly 2D art based on some idea that might be in mind for that NPC. Usually, when you want to add an NPC you have already a glimpse of which is his role.

Then you start to model.
You can use Blender and 3DSMax as Karyuu says, and both have a cal3d exporter. At the moment, 3dsmax has been the most used software within the team also for characters modelling.
In MB it was used the sprite exporter also for the characters, now that exporter has been mainly used for items.

After that there is texturizing.

Both this operations can be quite fast depending from the skills of the artist.
Of course, realizing a good model with a good texture requires time, and imho, character modelling is one of the most complicated things there are in modelling.

Animations must be applied as well to the model.

Then it is time to insert the NPC in the world.
There is no code for that, but simply you add the NPC in the database.

Of course, I would test also that the NPC in game behaves as I define (e.g. spawn point, etc.), but I don\'t think this is 100% of the times done.

[pasmoi]

This message is adressed to people that don\'t have programming knowlege/skills
I would like to add the following precisions :

1) for develloping a free game such as plaineshift, time is a real problem, because when you have the skill to participate into it, it means you have no time to do it because :
  - Programmer and computer ingenneers really have a lot of work to do (maybe not all of them, but at least  99% of them)
  - When they have time, they spend it with their girlfriend, friends, familly, ... or :
  - If they like video game (which is required to contribute to the PlaneShift Project, since I don\'t see someone that hate game spending time to create one) and if manage to find some time, they will evacuate their stress playing videogames instead of making some.

2) When you are working on a medium size project like PlaneShif, you collaborate with at least 50 other programmers. If you stay several months without looking at the code, to be able to do the least modification/deboging, you need to first get back into the \"code\" first (code ~= lines written in a programming laguage) and that may take several hour/days.

3) Even if I only glimpsed at it, plaineshift is (like most OpenSource projects) verry well organised, wich mean that the code written by one persone is easyly understanable by someone else, and that doing modification to it is easy. It also means that it is as \"generic\"/\"moduar\" it can be, witch means that nothing has to be done more than once, and thus, when you have to modify something in it, you never have to do the same modification to several places.
(for instance, the NPCs are not \"hard-coded\" but are defined by scripts on a separate module (here the module is in a separate program ! that\'s so beautifull !) so to add a NPC, you don\'t even need to write code, and when NPCs crashes, the server still runs !

4) a lot of peaple like me are tempted to participate/help in such a project, but they know that if they find the time (between 2 and 3 AM)  to do it once, stakes that this happens twice are close to zero.

5) IMPORTANT : the most \"time-costing\" thing in NPCs creating is the 3D modeling whitch _ANYONE_ able to clic on a mouse can do. learning how to use 3D Studio Max takes one or two afternoons, and if you don\'t want to buy such a software, you can use blender that is totally free ! A lot of tutorial exists on internet for quickstart using this kind of sofwares.
Using blender to create a 3D model is not harder than using MS-Word to type a beautifull report. (though I prefer TeX and (//) povray )
Anyone that has time can help develloping planeshift (would it be creating \"scripts\" or typing \"sentences\" for NPCs)
Note that very detailed explanation on how to make a bug happen are also precious to develloper.

6) note : Most computer ingeneers stop working as programmer after 2 years after they exited the school, and they loose a part of their programming ability (most of them becomes managers). Now everywhere in the world, most the company\'s programming is outsourced/dellocalised into India. (Programmers from India are really great and very skilled !) (it\'s just such a pity they are paid ten times less than french or american programmers)

anyway I\'ll download the source on my school laptop, and see if I can look for simple bugs (such as uninitialized pointers) in it when i have a gap.

If I see enough of it, I will discribe

since I\'m not very good at english, I appologise for the language/grammar/spelling/... I may have done in this post. Feel free to \"Private message\" them to me so I can correct them.

you may better understand why I\'m saying all this knowing that :
I\'m student at EISTI ( a computer ingeneer school)
I have more than 10 years of computer programming experience (including 9 years of C++ programming)
I have already participated in teams that created videogames (with 3D, network, IA, and sound programming)
Even though i\'m still a student, I already participate in several projects, and don\'t even have time to sleep. (and when I play, it is manly to evacuate my stress or my frustration against a problem I don\'t see the begening of a solution, and work better after)

I hope I have brung some light on why is planeshift advancing slowly, and how you can help things go faster.

[DaveG]

Originally posted by pasmoi
2) When you are working on a medium size project like PlaneShif, you collaborate with at least 50 other programmers.

50?... hahaha

Maybe a dozen, if you include some of the lighter contributors.  There\'s only a couple dozen people working on this, and not all at the same time.  We\'re not as large of a project as you think.  (Though, we are getting larger. *app plug* )

Also, 3D modeling is NOT an \"afternoon\" thing.  If you want to fill a game with detailed original environments and models, you can\'t just throw that together.  If it was, we\'d have a much larger art set at this point.

Other than this, yeah, some fair-ish assessments are in there.  We do not do this full-time and these things take time.  Most projects don\'t even let people watch as they develop.  Just be glad we do, and be patient.  

[pasmoi]

Originally posted by Goldir
 I only have a vague idea of what a \"build\", CS, and a cvs are, and I have no clue what CEL or Cal3d are.

DEFINITION OF BUILD :

In order to create a game such as plainshift, you need to make :
 - datas (such as pictures, the text the NPCs will say, a 3D map ...)
 - A programme that uses these datas to make the final game.

to create a program, you write lines in a programming langage. Each line is like an order that you give to the computer, and that the computer will execute (it is not an accurate/exact definition, but we can say each line is an instruction)
The set of all the lines that makes your program are called \"the code of the program\"
The main programming langage used to create plainshift is the C++
But the C++ instructions are not something the computer can execute : they are text in simplified english that is simple enough to be automatically translated into something the computer understands.

here an example of C++ code :
if (Player->life < 0)
  Player->isAlive = FALSE;
else
  Player->guerrir;

Since C++ is made with english words, understanding english is sometime enough to understand a part of well-written program.

the C++ code of the program is also called the SOURCE CODE of theprogram and is often abreviated as \"SOURCEs\". You may notice that you can download plainshift sources.

To make so that the computer understands these instructions, we thus have to translate them into something that makes sense for the electronic of the computer.  This \"something that makes sense for the electronic of the computer\" is the final program that you have downloaded and that you \"start\" when you start the game.
The action to make this  \"something that makes sense for the electronic of the computer\" from the source code is called compillation.
When you compille a complex project like plainshift, doing so, you also perform other action at the same time, such as linking it to the datas (3D textures ...) and other action that I wont desribe here.

The action of compilling a complex project to make the final \"game\" is called \"BUILDing a project\".
The result of the building procedure is thus call a BUILD.
At the time you compile, you may specify some options, that will change the resulted build. You can thus make several diffrent builds from one single project\'s source code.

Form instance, from the plainshift source code, you can either make the Linux, the MacOS or the windows build.
Needless to say that the Linux build will never work under windows and that both builds have a lot of differences.

END DEFINITION BUILD


DEFINITION OF CVS
(uses the definition of build)

CVS either means  Concurrent Versions System or  Current Versions System.
It is a system (a program) used to manage the source code of a project on wich several people works. It is only made for archiving differents version of a file, and has mecanisms that allows several people to modiffy differents parts of a same file at the same time.
cvs is manly used in the Unix world.
So CVS is just a tool for programmers.
But CVS allows people to get (download) the source code of a program.

So cvs is widely used to download the source code of a program, and make sure people always download the lastest version.
Since you can build the final program from the source code, under linux, there are programs that you can only get by

what cvs is (summury of text from info pages) :
CVS is a version control system.  Using it, you can record the history of your source files.
 With CVS, you can easily retrieve old versions to see exactly which change caused the bug.
You could of course save every version of every file you have ever created.  This would however waste an enormous amount of disk space.
CVS stores all the versions of a file in a single file in a clever way that only stores the differences between versions.

what cvs is NOT (summury of text from info pages)  (correct mistakes made by a lot of programmers) :
CVS can do a lot of things for you, but it does not try to be everything for everyone.
CVS is not a build system.
CVS does not dictate how you build anything.  It merely stores   files for retrieval in a tree structure you devise.
CVS does not dictate how to use disk space in the checked out working directories.
CVS is not a substitute for management.
CVS is not a substitute for developer communication.
CVS does not claim to help at all in figuring out non-textual or distributed conflicts in program logic.
CVS does not have change control.
CVS is not an automated testing program.
CVS does not have a built-in process model.

END DEFINITION OF CVS

Originally posted by Goldir
 I didn\'t consider this a code contribution,

neither do I. maybe shall we create a section of the dev forums to explain to non-programmers how the project is made? after all, one of the power of Open Sources projects is that they are a mine of *free* (public) knowledge ? (only a suggestion ...)

I hope you understand everything now ...

[pasmoi]

Originally posted by DaveG
50?... hahaha

Maybe a dozen, if you include some of the lighter contributors.  There\'s only a couple dozen people working on this, and not all at the same time.  We\'re not as large of a project as you think.  (Though, we are getting larger.

then congratulation :
it really looks as if you where more : that means you are very skilled (and is confirmed by the way your project is organised : only skilled programmer / project-team-leaders could organise so well and so cleanly such a project )

I really apreciate your work, and since I don\'t have windows on my computers (only Linux), planeshift is one the few free game I could play to
(of course I also buy some commercial games for Linux, but it\'s not the same)

anyway, I\'m in touch with a really big numbers of programmers (several thousands), so I\'ll tell them about planeshift, just in case some would want to help you. (it\'s sometime nice to have done 2 different compuer science engineering school)

[DaveG]

When giving definitions to people who probably have less technical ability (or just don\'t want the technical part), it\'s best to keep things simple and short.

Making a program file:

[*]Write program code (referred to as the \"source\")
[*]Compile code in a compiler (referred to as \"building\")
[*]The output of the compiler is a program file that can be run (exe on Windows, or whatever format needed for the OS)[/list]
CVS:
The place where we store the code.  You can retrieve any version of anything in the code, and use that to build any version of the program you need.


Anything more just turns into \"blah blah blah blah\" to people who only wanted to know what these things were.  ;)

[AryHann]

Originally posted by pasmoi
This message is adressed to people that don\'t have programming knowlege/skills
I would like to add the following precisions :

1) for develloping a free game such as plaineshift, time is a real problem, because when you have the skill to participate into it, it means you have no time to do it because :[...]

Partially this is true. It is true that since it is a free game, even if you have the skills you have time constraints. But that is independently from your \"programming skills\", since you could be in other parts of the \"project\" (e.g. settings) and there you don\'t need by default to be able to program.
I am a computer engineer and I have a lot of work to do. Despite that, I try to find time for PS because I like to do my part of the duties Even though, I have friends, boyfriend, family, other hobbies. It is just matter of personal organization. And trust me, it is not just me not putting Planeshift has priority number 1.
I like video games, but I don\'t play them. I prefer to work a bit for Planeshift. I don\'t think this is so strange, I guess it is matter of taste.

Originally posted by pasmoi
2) When you are working on a medium size project like PlaneShif, you collaborate with at least 50 other programmers. [...]

DaveG already answered to you. We are not that many. Where did you find such information? Check this link : http://www.planeshift.it/helpus.html You will find the composition of the team.
Planeshift code at the moment doesn\'t change so drastically within such short time. Of course, there are parts of the code that might change, but I don\'t think that is a big deal. Plus, every time someone submit some new code, independently if you are \"active\" or not, you have to look into it for understanding it.
There is no big requirement that you have to be active 24/7, but of course, if you are away for long time it is most probable that you have no time/no will to participate in the project any longer.

Originally posted by pasmoi
3) Even if I only glimpsed at it, plaineshift is (like most OpenSource projects) verry well organised, wich mean that the code written by one persone is easyly understanable by someone else, and that doing modification to it is easy. [...]

Planeshift is quite well organized, especially considering that it is a project done in the free time. But, without any organization I strongly doubt that after 5 years you would have seen anything.
Despite that, there are certain things lacking, e.g. the possibility to understand the code written by somebody else really quickly. We haven\'t yet reached that level of organization and I can tell you from experience, it is hard to achieve it also when you are working in a big, structured company.
Making modifications is not that easy. Some parts of the code are written a bit strangely and not commented, neither documented. The people who wrote the code is often not available. You have anything else than yourself and the others willing to help you, to get through that part.
It is not that modular. I think Crystal Space is modular. Planeshift is far for being so, in my opinion. Anyway, there has been code rewrote several times.
The NPCs are a good example, though, of things that you can change without need to put the hands in the code. Despite that, the \"npc handler\" could be written better

Originally posted by pasmoi
4) a lot of peaple like me are tempted to participate/help in such a project, but they know that if they find the time (between 2 and 3 AM)  to do it once, stakes that this happens twice are close to zero.

As I said above, we all have our lives. If you really want to participate in Planeshift, you will find some little amount of time for it and that would be enough. Despite that, it is required that you have really the skills and the talent for being part of such a team.

Originally posted by pasmoi
5) IMPORTANT : the most \"time-costing\" thing in NPCs creating is the 3D modeling whitch _ANYONE_ able to clic on a mouse can do. [...]

Learning how to use 3D Studio Max from scratch takes about 1 month if you can do that for 8 hours during the day. Learning to create a humanoid model takes definitely more time.
This is based on experience. This is based over the fact that I am gonna teach in an university course how to use 3D Studio Max. I know what I am talking about. I have been using 3D Studio Max for several months and I have never reached the ability to model a character. I had to ask somebody else to do that for me.
You can create models quite quickly (yes, an orange takes 2 nanoseconds), but creating a beautiful complex character takes several hours of work, depending of your experience.
If you are so quick and good, I would like to see some of your modelling works.
Maybe writing scripts for NPCs is a faster thing, but not everybody is allowed to do so because you have to get a global view over the setting and all the other NPCs, plus other tricks which are not that immediate to get. That is why there is so few people in the Settings Department.
It is true that helping with nicely written bug reports is essential for us.

Originally posted by pasmoi
6) note : Most computer ingeneers stop working as [...]

That might be true, but nobody force you to drop to program for Planeshift and lose your programming skills. I think I have been keeping working for Planeshift mainly because I thought I wanted to keep my programming skills alive.
What is the sense of this point? I don\'t get it.

Originally posted by pasmoi
anyway I\'ll download the source on my school laptop, and see if I can look for simple bugs (such as uninitialized pointers) in it when i have a gap.

Check the bugtracker to see if the bug is already assigned to somebody else. And if you want to be a contributor, I guess, you have to apply anyway through our application form. You find it here: http://www.planeshift.it/helpus_recruit.html

Originally posted by pasmoi
I hope I have brung some light on why is planeshift advancing slowly, and how you can help things go faster.

Ah, so this was the original meaning of the message? It was definetely not clear from the start Anyway, I can tell you whispering that those above are not properly the reasons why it is advacing slowly, even if the main weight can be addressed over the fact that each one of us has a life (hopefully) behind this computer

I also think that the people playing PS and especially, the ones asking and browing into this part of the forum, know pretty well what are basic concepts as how the game is structured or what is CVS :-)

[pasmoi]

Originally posted by AryHann
If you are so quick and good, I would like to see some of your modelling works.

I\'m sory, I did not use 3DSMax personally : but with 3 of my friends, we took one month (4 weeks spread over a year) to create a *clone* of the game worms (with true physics calculation, 2D DirectX main engine, but also 2 parts made in openGL, network, AI,  {wave, mp3, ogg vorbis, midi, mod, xt } sounds,  php web site with sql database with all code writen in notepad just for fun (one of my friend is crasy) ...

One of the member of the team (wich had by the way never programmed in his life before doing this project) made an intro using 3DSMax. Though the first scene has been made thanks to a tutorial and is not our, seeing it, you\'ll be able to see what someone that really gets into it can do in one week. (Before doing this video, he didn\'t even knew that 3DSMax existed).

I know that my friends are a little bi special, but they are not genius or so : they we just amased to see what they could do and went 200% into this project.

so that you can make your opinion on the work, the website of the project is :
http://pinguiarena.free.fr/
(you need to download the 40 MB version)
(on the left at : \" T?l?chargez la version compl?te ! (46 Mo) \")
(yes, sorry, we did not do an english version)

I am looking forward to your opinion. Since we only had positive comentary on this, please tell me what you think is not good in it (it will be precious to me)
I think that if you can all this one week (or even a little bit less), it easy to take one day of the week-end each week for 3 month and make a model such as the rat or the clacker. But you first need to be gifted for drawing and arts in general.

I think that if we have the passion of this kind of thing, and the necessary gift, it won\'t take so long to create one model. And it\'s not like only one person has to do it alone.

Originally posted by AryHann
That might be true, but nobody force you to drop to program for Planeshift and lose your programming skills. I think I have been keeping working for Planeshift mainly because I thought I wanted to keep my programming skills alive.
What is the sense of this point? I don\'t get it.

what i meant is that the average 40 years old computer ingeneer stoped programming 15 years ago, so, even if he had great coding skills 15 years ago, he may have lost a big part of them (as I forgot how to \"program\" in qbasic), so many may be playing planeshift, and would want to help you, but thinks they can\'t anymore since they may think they are not good enought at coding anymore.
(but I would be glad if I were wrong : that would give me hope :-)  )
anyway, 2 friend of mine is in that case of not knowing how to program anymore (or so they say) : one of them is at the head of a company, and almost never discuss technical things anymore, and the other only does math and algorithm complexity, but that would be great if they were exeption : I hope I\'ll still be a good programmer in 50 years :-)
(by the way, I have just been elected (by an overwhelming majority) best programmer of my school  /oo/  

Originally posted by AryHann
It was definetely not clear from the start

you just sumurised the problem of my life (I\'m already working on it, but advises are still welcomed) (it may also be more difficult for me in english)

Originally posted by AryHann
I also think that the people playing PS and especially, the ones asking and browing into this part of the forum, know pretty well what are basic concepts as how the game is structured or what is CVS :-)

great, this enforce my thought that this post was at the right place first (the one that created it asked what cvs was), and that moving it here was condamning it not to be read by the people it was made for.

But I thinks that like Goldir, other \"normal people\" may wonder about how this game is made, and since it is open source, this game may be a great \"teaching\" tool.


thanks for your time :-)
As soon as I finish my late work, the 3 projects that have been  in a \"waiting\" state for more than a year, I\'ll try to get into the heart of plaineshift source, and if I figure that I can really help you, I\'ll fill the applicance form.


waiting for this : plaineshift is just OVERWHELMINGLY GREAT !!!
it\'s THE videogame i have been dreaming of for years!
good luck, and thanks for making it.

[AryHann]

Hi,

I have looked into the game and I have looked at the intro.
I would like that you define what has been done by your friend and what is not. However, nothing that I have seen there is comparable with realizing a shape like the clacker or a rat which not only have a complex texture hand made, but also a good animation.
The animation in your intro is definetely a work of a couple of hours :-)

I would not comment the usability and the interface of the game, or I would get too picky. However, the game itself is simply an existing game. Can be funny, but nowadays I guess it is not as funny as 20 years ago :-)
You surely have done a good work, for one month of work, but there is a lack of care for details, imho. I might just be picky.

I still think you are underestimating the work behind a single model. We are not talking of cylinders with a 3dsmax material applied to it, but something a bit more artistic and complex.

Good luck,

[burned man]

Originally posted by DaveG

Originally posted by pasmoi
2) When you are working on a medium size project like PlaneShif, you collaborate with at least 50 other programmers.

50?... hahaha

Maybe a dozen, if you include some of the lighter contributors.  There\'s only a couple dozen people working on this, and not all at the same time.  We\'re not as large of a project as you think.  (Though, we are getting larger. *app plug* )

Also, 3D modeling is NOT an \"afternoon\" thing.  If you want to fill a game with detailed original environments and models, you can\'t just throw that together.  If it was, we\'d have a much larger art set at this point.

Other than this, yeah, some fair-ish assessments are in there.  We do not do this full-time and these things take time.  Most projects don\'t even let people watch as they develop.  Just be glad we do, and be patient.  

you say a dozen but when i check the developer map i count 28 what is this?