Author Topic: I thought this would be an open source game!!!  (Read 4778 times)

Karyuu

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« Reply #15 on: February 18, 2006, 07:20:09 am »
I honestly cannot understand why people think that reusing their art in another game would in any way be both a decent and allowable thing to do. You gave the art to PlaneShift - and to give the art in the first place, you have to agree not to use it for other games. Now if this is something you don\'t want to do, don\'t contribute! Moreover, art doesn\'t have anything to do with a project being \"open-source,\" again. Not by definition alone. And if the art were to be distributed freely as well, all artists would have to agree that their contributions could be used by anyone for anything at all - and how many would actually do that? They design things for PlaneShift and PlaneShift alone.

What is the problem? :x

Bah.

*edit* Partypartypartyparty >.>
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 11:36:08 am by Karyuu »
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

neko kyouran

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« Reply #16 on: February 18, 2006, 11:04:58 am »
First, Karyuu, calm down, and think happy thoughts, like you were at the party in the tavern earlier tonight.

Second, @politikerNEU, whether you like the licencing agreement or not, it is as stated and I seriously doubt it will change no matter how much noise you want to make about it.  So here\'s what we\'re going to do.  You\'re going to agree to be quite, let us enjoy the game the way it is and not come in here and try to start a ruckus, or you\'re going to leave.  Either way, you\'ll be quiet.

DaveG

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« Reply #17 on: February 18, 2006, 05:13:19 pm »
First of all, artists do not give their art to PlaneShift, they make it for PlaneShift.  There is nothing wrong with having a copyright in the name of the team that created it.  (in cases like this, it\'s often impossible to say only one person made it)

Secondly, no sane person can ever try and argue one thing is \"legal\" or \"illegal\" under any copyright law.  They\'re all garbage.  No one can agree on much, and when they do, it\'s usually an agreement that people can hold onto an idea for a century and prevent others from using it.  The original concept of a copyright was to prevent others from stealing an idea and claiming it as their own, which is all we\'re using it for.

I don\'t care what legal voodoo we do, there\'s nothing to stop some random person from using our art.  No one could really think that we\'d be able to, or want to, sue some random person for putting a piece of art on their website, for example.  It\'s there to prevent some company from taking it and making their own game with it, superseding us, and to prevent an ex-dev from taking half the game away when they leave.  (yes, it\'s purely paranoia; there\'s nothing wrong with that)

There are some places debating the legality of open-source, and all I can tell you is that if it is ever ruled \"illegal\" in one place, everyone will be quite justified in ignoring that ruling.  The entire concept of the open-source movement, is that we do not believe that anyone has a right to horde information.  If someone decided to criminalize it, most people wouldn\'t really care.

The ABC license is just legalese to do 2 things:
  • Make the code freely available to all, even to make your own game with it.
  • Keep the art from being stolen to make another game, but still allow it to still be shown freely by the creators.
Please be aware, that most of us are here in no small part due to the open-source nature of things.  Any vague attempt to go commercial would result in everyone leaving, and no one would attempt such a thing in the first place.  And as Xordan already pointed out, we are a non-profit organization, and this is simply not even allowed.  PlaneShift will always be free.
« Last Edit: February 18, 2006, 05:19:01 pm by DaveG »

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a19183

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Never?
« Reply #18 on: February 18, 2006, 08:02:00 pm »
Hi,
first of all:
No i am not an expert in Copyright Law.

Secondly i would like to mention that,
from a long range of experiences i would like to add the following:
Never say Never
(in loving memory of the original 007) ;-)
I think we all saw things happening which we did not believe to happen.

For me as a player (oops, sorry. Tester!) of this Game i say:
As long this Game is free, I will play.

As soon as paying money comes into this Game it would
also have to be compared with other Games where you have to pay.
And I think there is a pretty long way \'till there ;-)

Keep playing,
sorry did it again.
I mean testing.......

Greets
Markus

DaveG

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« Reply #19 on: February 19, 2006, 08:24:33 pm »
\"Play\" could almost be defined as \"test\", especially in this case.  ;)

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defender43

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« Reply #20 on: February 24, 2006, 10:35:08 pm »
What are we all whining about? The game is free. The coding is free. The only thing we test-players are paying for is our own electricity and Internet connection. Can\'t we all just get along?
\"Impossible is in the eye of the beholder.\" -- Laredo Silverspring.
\"Huh?\" -- Crimsonn Draycko.

Karyuu

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« Reply #21 on: February 24, 2006, 10:38:56 pm »
The issue isn\'t about what you\'re paying with, really, but what you can use for your own projects - which happens to be everything but the art, music, settings, and the like. And I like it that way :3
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

defender43

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« Reply #22 on: February 25, 2006, 12:54:04 am »
I think we should just be grateful PlaneShift:
1) Exists
2) Is free to play
3) Is free to download
4) Supports Roleplaying, and
5) Has Karyuu to make everyone fall out of their chairs laughing.
\"Impossible is in the eye of the beholder.\" -- Laredo Silverspring.
\"Huh?\" -- Crimsonn Draycko.

hook

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« Reply #23 on: February 28, 2006, 12:12:12 am »
If it makes you feel any better - I\'m a law student, I\'ve been around PlaneShift for ages, been using FOSS and into its movement for surely a decade now ...and I can safely say that PlaneShift *IS* open-source, is free ...the only thing that\'s different from completely is that the artistic part is not.

That has at least two reasons:
- keeping data and art under a separate license ensures the separation from code, which can be freely used to make new games, so the art and data can be used less freely, in order to keep the game development itself centralized (which is a choice the PS dev team made)
- as you self said, some artists don\'t want to pass on all their rights

...well, apart from the obvious reason, that GPL is not well suited for anything other then code, from a legal point of view

So: code is under GPL (client and server!), just the data and the art is under the Planeshift license (which is very interestingly written, btw!)

In any case you cannot enforce, even with GPL, that something will stay FOSS in its future - that\'s the author\'s right.
That\'s what happened to TuxRacer.
What GPL *will* ensure is that the version already covered by it, will remain under the same license ...that\'s how PPRacer came to be ...and that\'s the *real* beauty of FOSS - a project might die, but its history and fruits of its labour won\'t!

And from my experience and knowledge of the PlaneShift\'s past (it\'s and older project then you can imagine!), the devs have no reason and/or intention whatsoever to change it to non-free.

I\'ll fully read and write a better reply to this topic tomorrow... too sleepy right now. Please, take a deep breath and bare with me.
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in-game name: Seeln

DaveG

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« Reply #24 on: February 28, 2006, 01:50:10 am »
Quote
Originally posted by hook
I\'ll fully read and write a better reply to this topic tomorrow...

No need, this one said pretty much everything.  ;)

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hook

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« Reply #25 on: February 28, 2006, 05:23:08 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by DaveG
Quote
Originally posted by hook
I\'ll fully read and write a better reply to this topic tomorrow...

No need, this one said pretty much everything.  ;)


Well make that tomorrow into a few days :P

Tomorrow I\'m meeting with a prof. on our faculty who not only has a good knowledge of \"copyright\" (or more exactly: authorship law, since we\'re EU), but he\'s also one of Eben Moglen\'s students.

I can already now say for quite sure that there\'s no illegal business with the ABC license agreement. But tomorrow I\'ll be able to say it for sure.

p.s. for those who don\'t know who Eben Moglen is - he\'s the law mastermind behind GPL and FSF.
p.p.s. I\'m from Slovenia which is under EU and its legislature.

edit: changed the \"deadline\" ;)
« Last Edit: March 01, 2006, 07:47:23 pm by hook »
:emerald: The Treecastle *will* stand !!! :emerald:

in-game name: Seeln

jorrit

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« Reply #26 on: March 07, 2006, 10:27:32 am »
Quote
Originally posted by politikerNEU
And still it is forbidden for any european artist to give away the copyright, it is impossible because it is illegal in Europe.


Where did you find that this is illegal? As far as I know this is not illegal at all. My mother used to write books and as an author she sometimes had to assign copyright to the publisher (not to her). And my mother lives in Belgium. So I strongly doubt this is illegal. And if you really think it is illegal you should give some proof on this.

Greetings,
Project Manager of Crystal Space, CEL, CrystalBlend and Crystal Core. Please support Crystal Space with a donation.

jorrit

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« Reply #27 on: March 07, 2006, 10:30:47 am »
Quote
Originally posted by jorrit
Quote
Originally posted by politikerNEU
And still it is forbidden for any european artist to give away the copyright, it is impossible because it is illegal in Europe.


Where did you find that this is illegal? As far as I know this is not illegal at all. My mother used to write books and as an author she sometimes had to assign copyright to the publisher (not to her). And my mother lives in Belgium. So I strongly doubt this is illegal. And if you really think it is illegal you should give some proof on this.

Greetings,


Another example. I write software where I work. The software I write is copyrighted to my company even though I work it. And I work in Belgium.

Greetings,
Project Manager of Crystal Space, CEL, CrystalBlend and Crystal Core. Please support Crystal Space with a donation.

AryHann

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« Reply #28 on: March 07, 2006, 12:25:13 pm »
Few points that I would like to express, even if they will be probably redundant because there have been plenty of good replies in this thread.

I would like also to underline that I am the author of Virtual Annel?v, which is a MORPG based on PS engine. It is a finished game, I used not only the code of PS, but also the kindness of the people behind it, who has helped me modelling, doing 2d art, adding the models, the art, implementing new things, understanding the code, etc.

The engine IS open source, the result is that this is an Open Source game, at exception of the \"artistic\" part. You can use the engine, modify it, spread it, etc.etc. (see Virtual Annel?v). However, the licensed part is for free.

You can set up your own server as long as you are not using it for making other people play on it, with the licensed stuff. Usually, plenty of people set up their own server for testing and for contributing with their code to the game. For playing there is an official public server (just one at the moment - who says that in the future they will not be more), I don\'t see the point in having a server where to play with your friends in this kind of games, plus, it would spoil the game - to \"train\" in solving the quests on your \"LAN\" and then come with all the solutions on the public game ;-)

I really don\'t know where did you get from the illegality of this kind of contribution in the European Law. I live in Sweden and I work for a swedish multinational company. In my contract I had to sign several parts to declare that I can\'t even bring the code/resources/other \"company\" material at home, I can\'t talk about certain things, and my code is copyrighted to the company. It is rather normal in the \"job market\" to have this kind of situations, in which you do some work and your work is copyrighted to the company (as Jorrit already stated).

The contribution you make for PS as code shouldn\'t be seen as a theft. All contributions have been appreciated os far and claiming the copyright just assures that a day you won\'t wake up pretending to remove every comma of your code just because you feel like it. If you resign a work, your work will not go away with you from the company and you have no right whatsoever to carry your work in another company.

A lot of people have already resigned to contribute to PS because of the art license. Everybody is free to choose what to do knowing the license, and they chose so. However, it is also true that it would not be pleasant to see clones of the art somewhere else (why would you like to have your art in every other game on earth? it doesn\'t make sense, since the context and setting will be surely different), nor to remove models/texture/music from the game. It is a way to protect the holistic of the game and its uniqueness. Anyway AB doesn\'t gain anything \"personal\" by the ownership of the models, for example, it is just the uniqueness of the game that is protected.

Who uses PS engine is free - if I am right - to use the code for a commercial game (it has happened with Crystal Space code and that\'s not such a strange thing to see). However, it will be the engine and not the \"art\" (sorry for repeating myself) used in any other project.

It\'s true that one day the ABC could wake up and change their minds, but that could happen (and could have happened ) independently and in an uncorrelated way fom rhte actual circumstances. There is that risk, but I don\'t see how that would happen since it is stated everywhere that the game is intended to be free forever and oneiros has described well how the change will not bring so many advantages.
If you are afraid it will happen, I am sorry to hear that, but I believe that if we wanted to make such choice it would have been made already from the start and anyway, I don\'t see the big problem if one day somebody will change its mind. At the end, if his free time that has been used to build such a game :-PPP Crazyness might happen!!! :)
AryHann

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zorbels

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« Reply #29 on: March 07, 2006, 07:19:51 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by Bereror
Planeshift team wants to create an unique game, the best MMORPG even seen. If you can contribute to the game, you are more than welcome, but forking it does not help on that goal.


Could not have said it better myself.

That is the biggest problem with these complaints  
I read on the forums ... I see alot of bitching but I see no solutions from the people who tend to open their mouths and let all the negitive pour out. *sighs*

Zorbels throws karyuu a party and pops a strawberry in her mouth*
   I've been outside, it's overrated and the graphics suck!