Author Topic: Your 3 most hated THINGS  (Read 19570 times)

zanzibar

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« Reply #225 on: April 10, 2006, 09:38:10 pm »
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Originally posted by Induane
Sadly, the people who are so extremely concerned for animals, while nice sounding, shows just how out of touch people are with nature.



Natural does not mean moral.

And mad cow disease is still around, so I take issue with your definition of \"under control\".  The truth is that we don\'t even know the full scope of the damage that was done.



These people who use \"natural\" to justify their lifestyle don\'t have much to stand on.  Vacines aren\'t natural, drinking milk into adulthood isn\'t natural, TV and computers aren\'t natural, drinking the milk of other animals isn\'t natural.  And there are plenty of other things which are natural but we all agree are bad.  Natural equals good is a really bad argument to make.
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lanser

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« Reply #226 on: April 10, 2006, 09:42:33 pm »
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Originally posted by Valbrandr
Hmm I watched a documentary on the discovery channel.. and that was the given reason.. but if you have a link of information proving it can from sheep then I will have a look.  and the second part was a direct reply to Induanes post right above it :P.


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Valbrandr

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« Reply #227 on: April 10, 2006, 09:47:13 pm »
I very well may have been wrong.  When I get home from work today Ill look into it a bit more.  But it seems your link is valid at the least being a .gov site.  Usually they have good info.

Induane

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« Reply #228 on: April 10, 2006, 10:02:07 pm »
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Natural does not mean moral.


Why use a relative term to describe a relative term?  Natural is what we make it.  Same with moral. We\'ve all different ideas about things.  I tried to define the word natural by the context in which I used it, but now the word \"moral\" pops up.  I\'d bet that there are millions of different opinions of the word moral.  Your personal defination does not take precidence over mine, nor mine yours.

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And mad cow disease is still around, so I take issue with your definition of \"under control\". The truth is that we don\'t even know the full scope of the damage that was done.


I think the idea is that the actions that were the worst risk are under control, but yes, the full scope is as of yet unknown, and under control is another relative term. No sense arguing varying degrees of it. :D

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These people who use \"natural\" to justify their lifestyle don\'t have much to stand on. Vacines aren\'t natural, drinking milk into adulthood isn\'t natural, TV and computers aren\'t natural, drinking the milk of other animals isn\'t natural. And there are plenty of other things which are natural but we all agree are bad. Natural equals good is a really bad argument to make.


I never said natural = good.  I said natural = natural, simply taking a step back and realizing that we all have our part to play; I am an animal, so are you - we are part of a society.  Sometimes in order to maintain the style of a society, that society makes generalities giving a commond ground of similar or compatible goals, and lifestyles.  Means of doing thing are very dynamic in the human world, but that doesn\'t mean its not natural.  Different societies are found all around the animal kingdom, each with their own rules and ways.  I understand that you can\'t say for instance rape is natural in the animal kingdom, so it is natural for humans to rape, and therefore it is ok to rape.  This is because humans formed a society in which that was considered wrong.  This was done as a natural progression for population control, mental conditioning, etc... People get into religion here, using a common book to say that morals are absolute.  I understand this a bit better, as its a common ground for people to help define their socitey, and is an easy way to have common morals within a group without having to justify it in any way.

I consider natural natures progression of genetics, behavior, and societal evolutions, which includes technological advances.  

You\'ll note I never said you can use \"natural\" to justify actions.  You really seemed to miss my point.  

POINT:  
Everything in the world is linked as part of a giant system.  Each part of the system has its place.  Humans, like other animals are part of this enormous giant mindboggling complex organism that is our planet.  When we forget that we are a part of the system and start thinking we are above the system we run into problems with our own perceptions.  Suddenly we are the focal point, and everything is below us, which is an illusion created by our own misconceptions, stubbornness, and overal inability to comprehend something larger than ourselves.

Other point:  You cannot use relative personal terms to prove \"Facts\". Use empirical evidence, and scientific terms.  Moral, Natural, etc... bad words as it is easy to fall into a disagreement of terms which takes away from a healthy discussion.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2006, 10:05:59 pm by Induane »

zanzibar

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« Reply #229 on: April 10, 2006, 10:08:48 pm »
I\'ll rephrase it:  We shouldn\'t do something just because it\'s natural.
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Induane

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« Reply #230 on: April 10, 2006, 10:14:10 pm »
Thats was what your point was all along? ?(

Valbrandr

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« Reply #231 on: April 10, 2006, 10:15:56 pm »
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Originally posted by zanzibar
I\'ll rephrase it:  We shouldn\'t do something just because it\'s natural.


Is it natural if we have the rationale to not do it?

zanzibar

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« Reply #232 on: April 10, 2006, 10:27:31 pm »
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Originally posted by Induane
Thats was what your point was all along? ?(


One of them.


Quote
Originally posted by Valbrandr
Quote
Originally posted by zanzibar
I\'ll rephrase it:  We shouldn\'t do something just because it\'s natural.


Is it natural if we have the rationale to not do it?


In that instance, you\'re using a different definition of natural than how others were previously.  Some would argue that vegetarianism is \"natural\" based on biological, sociological, or even positivist-philosophical grounds.  I think that when people say \"natural\" however as others have in this discussion, they\'re invoking such things as the image of \'man\' as a hunter gatherer.
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Golarim

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« Reply #233 on: April 10, 2006, 10:27:43 pm »
is a tofurkey (tofu turkey) natural? Just a random question...

zanzibar

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« Reply #234 on: April 10, 2006, 10:35:19 pm »
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Originally posted by Golarim
is a tofurkey (tofu turkey) natural? Just a random question...



It depends on your definition of natural.  To me, it\'s just not very good.:)
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Valbrandr

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« Reply #235 on: April 10, 2006, 10:37:24 pm »
Lanser:

I believe the link you gave me disproves your arguement or atleast doesnt prove anything.

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- the source of infection in the MBM was tissues derived from sheep infected with conventional scrapie;


 
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The cases of BSE identified between 1986 and 1988 were not index cases, nor were they the result of the transmission of scrapie. They were the consequences of recycling of cattle infected with BSE itself. The BSE agent was spread in MBM.


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BSE probably originated from a novel source early in the 1970s, possibly a cow or other animal that developed disease as a consequence of a gene mutation. The origin of the disease will probably never be known with certainty.

Induane

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« Reply #236 on: April 10, 2006, 11:09:39 pm »
mostly I have been reading zanzibars responses to me so I didn\'t notice this by Lanser:

Quote
not strictly true the main source is believed to be from scabies infected sheep by-products


Well lets examine prions.

Prions are basically protein fragments.  In fact every person actually has many healthy prions inside their brains right now.  Prions that cause these diseases are proteins that had their malfunctioned during their formation and became misshaped.  This happens fairly regularly, and is even thought to be a possible cause for altzheimers.  Kuru came about because of certain cannabilistic tribes.  A person within the tribe had malformed prions, and died as a result.  The tribe consumed the brain of the deceased, and as a result became infected, the consequences of which continued for as long as they were a cannabilistic tribe.  Because of Lamarckian evolution, the trend continued even after they were no longer cannabilistic tribes.  Lamarckian evolution is a process in which traits can be exerted on an organism during their lifetimes that can be passed down genetically.  Thus, prolonged cannibilism caused some of these people to pass the disease on indirectly, from parent to child.  It is also important to note that some prions can cause disease in a multitude of hosts.

In the meat industry, the leftovers from the slaughter house were used to create food for the cattle on hand.  This was done to be less wasteful and save money.    The long short of this is that changing which animal that the animal byproduct is fed to doesn\'t stop these from being harmful or transmitted, but it does stop the Lamarckian evolution from causing all of our cattle from becomming genetically predisposed to having the disease from birth, thus saving us from ending up with a population of tainted cattle which we can do nothing with.  Cannibilism is a behavior which can perpetuate and induce prionic diseases into a given group, but does not cause the disease directly.


There is little known about the disencfection of prions, other than it has been shown that high degrees of UV light may render them inactive.



and then.....


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In that instance, you\'re using a different definition of natural than how others were previously. Some would argue that vegetarianism is \"natural\" based on biological, sociological, or even positivist-philosophical grounds. I think that when people say \"natural\" however as others have in this discussion, they\'re invoking such things as the image of \'man\' as a hunter gatherer.


Heh, thats the rub isn\'t it?  Defining the issue is sometimes very difficult given everyones own opinions on one word.  A technicality to be sure but it can sure get in the way hehe.
 I\'ve more but I\'ll probabily need another post to do it.

Valbrandr

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« Reply #237 on: April 10, 2006, 11:22:09 pm »
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In that instance, you\'re using a different definition of natural than how others were previously. Some would argue that vegetarianism is \"natural\" based on biological, sociological, or even positivist-philosophical grounds. I think that when people say \"natural\" however as others have in this discussion, they\'re invoking such things as the image of \'man\' as a hunter gatherer.


BTW, I am using \"Natural\" like I would Instinct.  I dont mean what is made natural through society.  A factor independent, void of society or any influence in that regard.  Something we are born with.  Many keep saying how we are apart of the animal kingdom.  And these animals that we speak of act in some ways natural because of instinct... what do we do because of instinct?

Induane

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« Reply #238 on: April 10, 2006, 11:30:12 pm »
Sorry to post so much, reading over this thread really gets me really riled up.

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   Quote:Originally posted by Zan
    - People who feel the need to tell others how to live their lives .. over and over





Yeah, what right do we have to stop gang violence? It\'s just the way they choose to live their lives.



Edit: Oh wait, the way a person lives can affect other people in the world. Who would have thought!


Your example of gang violence doesn\'t really work.  The issue here is obviously personal rights.  To a certain extent societies use governments to tell others how to live their lives.  That is what a society does - it defines a set of ways to live by.  They are usually designed by necessity, and revolve around maintiaining civil order.  My grandfather used to say \"Civilization is but a thin veneer.\" and I agree with him.  There is a fine line there, and it as soon as something happens and law enforcement leaves, you\'ll see the reason we define rules within society.  When Hurricane Katrina hit the US there was looting, killing, etc...

The important thing to remember in a society is that usually a person still has unlimited rights, but their rights extend only as far as themselves.  So for instance I\'m perfectly free to flail about wildly while brandishing more sharp swords than I can handle, while riding a unicylce on an unwashed (and possibly prion filled) hamburger patty; and thats well and dandy.  BUT, if I were to move that rolling array of death and stupidity into a place inhabited by other people, this would be unacceptable as I am putting others at risk - without their choice.  If they choose to come to your house and watch this bizzare spectacle at close range despite your warning then it is a different story.  Similarly society defines rules like that with some exceptions, but those are usually from the narrow minded type people.  These sorts of rules are usually based around religious practices, and aren\'t something that harm others.  Same with regulating certain substances such as marajuanna.  These types of rules are exceptions, though they seem to be enacted because some people tend to not worry about how they affect others.  I.E. Drinking is legal, but drinking and driving are not.  Drinking doesn\'t hurt anyone else, drinking and driving puts others at risk.  These types of rules are more common.  SO,....

what I\'m getting at with this is basically that a person shouldn\'t be forcing their personal beliefs on someone, as that is personal.   That said if Zanzibar saw me performing my wild unicycle act in a crowd of children he should definately put an end to it if possible or call the authorities immeadiatly.  However if he saw me sitting on my back porch smoking weed alone before I go to bed, then he should leave well enough alone and not tell me what I can and can\'t do.....

thats how I feel about it anyways :D
« Last Edit: April 10, 2006, 11:34:14 pm by Induane »

zanzibar

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« Reply #239 on: April 10, 2006, 11:39:50 pm »
And if that smoke drifts through the open window leading to your neighbour\'s nursery?
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