Your 3 most hated THINGS

[Valbrandr]

Zanizibar

I have read every post you have made.. and I fully understand... however your not actually answering the questions thrown at you.  Maybe someday you will be a great politician.  Heres what I want.. which you have not done as of yet, what do you think should be done?  More farming, less raising of cattle?  What do you actually believe instead of the beating around the bush here.

[zanzibar]

@ Induane:

I\'ve already answered those questions.

You really want me to prove that animals feel pain and that plants do not?  Don\'t be stupid.

Originally posted by Valbrandr
Zanizibar

I have read every post you have made.. and I fully understand... however your not actually answering the questions thrown at you.  Maybe someday you will be a great politician.  Heres what I want.. which you have not done as of yet, what do you think should be done?  More farming, less raising of cattle?  What do you actually believe instead of the beating around the bush here.

Those are not the questions you were asking before.

They are also questions I have already answered.

There are good and bad ways to do agriculture.  The meat industry is worse IMHO for a variety of reasons.  More agriculture isn\'t the solution by itself; it has to be smarter agriculture at the same time, but it is possible.

This line of discussion distracts from the real issue.

[Induane]

The real issue was whether or not bad practices in the meat industry, which have lead to prionic diseases, as well as animal cruelty, are justification for telling people that it is immoral, or wrong to eat meat right?  I\'m not exactly sure as the topic is a thread tangent anyways.  I simply took issue with a few points made.  If I\'m wrong about the main topic let me know so I can stay on topic more aptly.

Don\'t tell me not to be stupid.  I\'ve every right to be as stupid as I want, as do you, though you seem to use that right more often than I remembered you did.  Besides, I wasn\'t really challenging you to prove anything.  The question was rhetorical.  The point was that unless you are a cow or a horse or a tree or a fern, you cannot really say what they expirence.  That isn\'t saying that you can justify animal cruelty, only that we may not have the whole picture and stating some of these things as absolute \"facts\" is misleading.


Since you admit that agricultural practices can be harmful as well, and agree that it would take better practices to make vegitarian diets mainstream, could you not also concede that it may be possible to change the meat industry for the better?  Practices have improved drastically in recent years, and research is being done to find ways to make it less \"cruel\".  

I personally think that both industries could use improvement.  A vegitarian diet isn\'t completely healthy without supliments for now, so for it to  be really viable we\'d have to make foods a bit more nutricious.  We would also need to remove the High Fructose Corn syrup which is present in nearly every non meat food from soda to hamburger buns.  This sweetener isn\'t especially healthy.

I do think it is wrong to criticize a persons choice to follow their natural omnivorious state simply because some people disapprove of the means with which they get their meat.  The same goes in reverse of  course, if there are many carnivor only people out there...

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Induane
The real issue was whether or not bad practices in the meat industry, which have lead to prionic diseases, as well as animal cruelty, are justification for telling people that it is immoral, or wrong to eat meat right?

The reasons you just listed, along with a variety of other reasons, add up to be justification for telling people that it is wrong to eat meat.  That\'s my opinion, of course, but I\'m fairly confident in and comfortable with it.

Originally posted by Induane
it would take better practices to make vegitarian diets mainstream

I never agreed to that.

Originally posted by Induane
 A vegitarian diet isn\'t completely healthy without supliments

Those supliments are available from vegetarian sources.

Originally posted by Induane
I do think it is wrong to criticize a persons choice to follow their natural omnivorious state

If I feel that a person\'s lifestyle is harmful to others, then I feel I have every right to be publically critical of it.

[derwoodly]

Originally posted by Induane
Don\'t tell me not to be stupid.  I\'ve every right to be as stupid as I want, as do you, though you seem to use that right more often than I remembered you did.  Besides, I wasn\'t really challenging you to prove anything.  The question was rhetorical.  The point was that unless you are a cow or a horse or a tree or a fern, you cannot really say what they expirence.  That isn\'t saying that you can justify animal cruelty, only that we may not have the whole picture and stating some of these things as absolute \"facts\" is misleading.

Well said Induane. The irony is that this post was one of your \"smarter\" ones.  So, by posting a smart post you are complying to zanzibars request.

@ Zanzibar

http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/warriorshtm/tirelessrebutter.htm

[zanzibar]

For Tireless Rebutter there is no such thing as a trivial dispute. He regards all challenges as barbarians at the gates. His unflagging tenacity in making his points numbs and eventually wears down the opposition. Confident that his arguments are sound, Tireless Rebutter can\'t understand why he is universally loathed.



That\'s a very rude thing to say about me.  People have asked me questions and I\'ve done my best to answer them.  You\'re an ass.

[Goldir]

My favorite responses to rabidly idealistic vegetarians.  

1.   If humans were intended to be vegetarian, our teeth would be large, flat, and have much more enamel.

2.   \"See these?\" *points to canine teeth and incisors* \"They have a purpose and it isn\'t for chewing plant matter\"

3.   Man is an omnivore and an opportunist.  Without these traits, he would have died out long before.

4.   Go ahead and turn down those evil animal products.  There are people in other parts of the world without the luxury of picking their meals.  More for them.

Vegetarianism for health reasons is one thing.  Veganism, or if someone does it out of idealism I want those people  to do me a favor.  First, go find every single piece of leather in your house, and bury it.  Then, don\'t use glue, wear wool or own any furniture that uses it, own any type of carnivorous/omnivorous animal, get vaccinated, eat most major brand names of bread, use anything containing gelatin, or toothpaste (some brands contain fish scales), and vitamin supplements (gelcaps are made from, you guessed it, gelatin), some enzyme supplements are taken from bacteria grown in petri that is cultered from boiled animal blood and gelatin.  Oh yeah, and most soap is made from animal fat. There is a larger list here: http://www.vnv.org.au/AnimalProducts.htm

The fact that animals and possibly some plants feel pain is basically irrelavant.  If they didn\'t have some way of sensing danger or damage to themselves, they wouldn\'t have survived this long.  Read: Extinction.

I\'m proud of being at the top of the food chain, and I am not going to sacrifice my physical well being for something too stupid and complacent to save itself.  I will, however try to make some allowances.  If I don\'t have a use for an animal or plant, and it isn\'t being offensive or noxious in some way, I\'m not going to destroy it.   The whole \"eat what you kill\" and \"everything in moderation\" concepts at work.

[derwoodly]

Originally posted by zanzibar
That\'s a very rude thing to say about me.  People have asked me questions and I\'ve done my best to answer them.  You\'re an ass.

I apologize for insulting you
I personally found it to be funny, and thought you would see the humor in it.  As you did not, I am sorry I offended you.  In the future I will refrain from any similar jabs at you

[zanzibar]

1.   If humans were intended to be vegetarian, our teeth would be large, flat, and have much more enamel.

i) That\'s debatable.
ii) What is natural is not necessarily moral.


2.   \"See these?\" *points to canine teeth and incisors* \"They have a purpose and it isn\'t for chewing plant matter\"

i) They aren\'t canines, and they aren\'t much good for eating raw meat.
ii) What is natural is not necessarily moral.


3.   Man is an omnivore and an opportunist.  Without these traits, he would have died out long before.

i) Such a lifestyle has negative consequences.
ii) What is natural is not necessarily moral.


4.   Go ahead and turn down those evil animal products.  There are people in other parts of the world without the luxury of picking their meals.  More for them.

i) Irrelevant.
ii) See above.

[Goldir]

But what is moral? When I was in East Asia it was considered perfectly moral to raise and eat a dog just as you would a cow. (too stringy and dry for my taste).  

Who defines what is moral and what isn\'t?  It is all up to you.  If a man grew up without influence of any other human beings, would he have a moral compunction against killing one if he encountered it?  Morals of a person in ______ country/religion/social group could be completely different than mine.  Doesn\'t make them worse or better.  My only pet peeve is that if someone takes a moral stance on an issue, they need to be consistent.  Anything less lowers their credibility.

[lanser]

Sorry Zanzibar still not satisfied that you have given me a direct answer, but if I follow your \"footprint\" then it seems that you find stealing from a rape victim acceptable but because it doesn\'t do as much harm.

@ Goldir I agree completely Morality is a system of principles and judgments based on cultural, religious, and philosophical concepts and beliefs, by which humans determine whether given actions are right or wrong. These concepts and beliefs are often generalized and codified by a culture or group, and thus serve to regulate the behaviour of its members. Conformity to such codification may also be called morality, and the group may depend on widespread conformity to such codes for its continued existence.


raising a further point for discussion, we have both agreed that agriculture is bad for the environment, but if the whole world went vegetarian where would all the protein for our diet come from?
How many extra acres of wheat/rice would need to be planted? How much rain forest would have to be ripped up to supply our planets increasing population?

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Goldir
But what is moral? When I was in East Asia it was considered perfectly moral to raise and eat a dog just as you would a cow. (too stringy and dry for my taste).  

Who defines what is moral and what isn\'t?  It is all up to you.  If a man grew up without influence of any other human beings, would he have a moral compunction against killing one if he encountered it?  Morals of a person in ______ country/religion/social group could be completely different than mine.  Doesn\'t make them worse or better.  My only pet peeve is that if someone takes a moral stance on an issue, they need to be consistent.  Anything less lowers their credibility.

Most people agree that hurting other humans is bad.  That\'s why I\'m vegetarian (in part).

Originally posted by lanser
Sorry Zanzibar still not satisfied that you have given me a direct answer, but if I follow your \"footprint\" then it seems that you find stealing from a rape victim acceptable but because it doesn\'t do as much harm.

You\'re really reaching on this one.

Your original statement was:

\"During a rape some jewellery is stolen, would you buy the jewellery? If not then with your point of view why buy leather? \"

In your original statement, you\'re buying the jewellery and not stealing it.  Also, you\'re buying it from a rapist, not stealing it from a rape victim.  Stop changing your story.

And no.  I\'ve never said that I found it acceptable.  I find it irrelevant to the topic at hand.

Is it immoral to support the meat industry in rather disconnected ways such as drinking milk and having a leather wallet?  Some people say it is.  Is it as bad as eating meat throughout your leff?  Heck no.

[Waylander]

Being a vegetarian is a choice, and I respect your right to make that choice.

Sadly, you seem to be living in a fantasy world.  Morality may mean a lot to those who have everything but, to many it comes second to survival.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Waylander
Being a vegetarian is a choice, and I respect your right to make that choice.

Sadly, you seem to be living in a fantasy world.  Morality may mean a lot to those who have everything but, to many it comes second to survival.

Do you believe that for you and me it comes down to survival?

[davo]

i eat meat, at work and i eat only meat - chicken, cow, pig and lamb and a bit of rice.

to me i know plants dont have feelings and i know animals suffer.

i dont winge at vegatarians and vegatarians shouldent winge at me.

I dont think ive ever heard vegetarians complain about halal, oh wait that would be \'racist\'. btw halal is the way islamists eat meat by cutting the animals throat.