Author Topic: Taking ideas from D&D for combats.  (Read 1895 times)

Astenorh Dunkel

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Taking ideas from D&D for combats.
« on: March 02, 2006, 01:18:29 pm »
I started to read again my books of Dungeons and Dragons, the first Role Playing Game (on paper of course). I didn\'t read it all yet (over 300 pages by books, and 3 basic books). But i\'ve read they encourage to make battle in harder situation rather than harder monsters. For example fighting on a brigde just like Gandalf did in LOTR ( \"You shall not pass\" ) or have avantage due of being above/below the enemy.

I don\'t if it is already like that in PlaneShift but, there would be more mouvement in battle if they we\'re avantages if a PNJ or PJ were in special position like being above the other or be harder to touch being hide in the woods.

I think it would especialy good for archer if they would appear soon in the game (for what I am wishing the Game Makers good luck, because i know it\'s hard.)
« Last Edit: March 02, 2006, 01:18:47 pm by Astenorh Dunkel »
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defender43

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« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2006, 03:46:38 pm »
Tell me, Aster, is this game PlaneShift or Dungeons and Dragons? I think you may be a little confused.
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Cyl

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« Reply #2 on: March 02, 2006, 05:46:53 pm »
Quote
Originally posted by defender43
Tell me, Aster, is this game PlaneShift or Dungeons and Dragons? I think you may be a little confused.


Wait, there are a lot of games in which you move around with the W,A,S,D key, it is unoriginal, stuff it!
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Pestilence

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« Reply #3 on: March 02, 2006, 05:56:51 pm »
not the first Astenorh although probably the oldest still used on a large scale ;)

As for the suggestions I have seen them before and I definately think it\'s a good idea but it will take some time before PS is evolved enough to have these kind of rules.

Think combat as it is still needs quite a bit of balancing and the devs are working on several other things aswell. :)

Berzerk

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« Reply #4 on: April 04, 2006, 10:07:02 am »
I don\'t know, ever since I\'ve played The Elder Scrolls IV, Oblivion and it\'s combat system I can\'t even stand playing any other game with a turn based system. Having the ability to control everything in battle WITHOUT dice roles determining anything but small things like damage delt or critical hits. Being able to block with your shield at your command not a random chance of a block was so nice, and attacking with a simple click of the button or hold it down for a slow but powerful attack made it better, also being able to determine what type of attack you made without any silly combat stance buttons was great. Spells were even easy to cast even in mid battle or out of battle, didn\'t have to switch anything to use it just a simple click of your use magic button fired it off like a normal attack almost even if it wasn\'t combat based, magic I must say was done to almost perfection in it.

Basicly I can no longer stand turn based combat anymore, ever since Oblivion (Which in my years of gaming has THEE best combat system for any RPG ever by far, yes even better than draken 2) everything else just seems so..... limited and extremly uninteresting, basicly you start combat and watch and hope you win, little involment except in spells and small stuff. I know this is plane shift not Oblivion, but Turn based Combat I do believe has played it\'self to it\'s end, its now boring and depends almost soly on stats and equipment, very little skill needed to do anything in battle. Most involved turn based combat game was Guild Wars, and it was fun for a little while, but like all other turn based games you get to the point where your thinking \"Ugh not another fight\" in a real hurry. Guild Wars didn\'t go to lvl 20 only to keep balance, they did it cause by the time your reach it your pretty well bored of the combat system where nothing really intresting can be found in it anymore.

Being a rouge character who uses speed and manuverablility to win a fight not brute force is severly hindered here being forced to basicly blunt fight his/her foe, with a real time combat with actual controls would allow them to hit and run or use trickery.

Also I absolutly hate it when I see my sword go RIGHT THROUGH a guy and I somehow completely miss dispite he should be a halfling after that. not saying you should be able to decapitate or anything just stupid you swing right through someone and don\'t even hurt them. Turn based is not a bad idea, was a great system for a long time, but it\'s potential has been played out completely and there is no way you can make it any more interesting worth noting than it already is. Its time to face it, Turn based is done for, Real time combat is going to sweep the gaming world now that people have had a more than a taste of it, they got a full meal and are hungery for more, a lot more.

I don\'t know why I bother saying this since it won\'t make it anywhere beond this thread, I brought up a real time combat system befor and got shot down badly by everyone here even the mods, as if they all want a turn based combat system so bad they had to socialy kill me in order to protect it, was weird (However this was like a year ago, things may have changed since than). If they play Oblivion and see what a real time combat system is they would have a big change of mind in how fun turn based really is, cause I certainly lost a ton of interest in turn based since Oblvion. Of course ever making PS real time combat would require one strong engine to pull off to keep the game smooth and most importantly transfer delay from each player\'s PC, obviously would have to be slowed down a bit so others can react befor the lag kills them. Plus sometimes you just feel like swing your sword around like an idiot for no reason at all, just a moronic human side effect. lol

I know this game isn\'t based on combat, its about more realistic aspect such as economy and politics, but a good combat system is essential for any RPG of this nature to thrive, weather turn based or real time.

Hmm I reread this post befor I plastered it here and I know some would take it badly soooo, Let me make note that none of this was hostile to anyone or thing, was mearly a expression of \"my personal\" dislike of turn based combat (Which I did like \"befor\" I played Oblivion). I would like to see this in PS but I do doubt it would EVER make it do to so many logistical problems with it being online namely the time delay which hinders slower connection players unfairly, perhappes somehow get it running as smooth as most FPSes and it would work amazingly. also they have a working system of combat, though they admit is primitive at the moment which they can easly manipulate and upgrade to a far stronger and more effective turn based combat system than the current. These are just the rantings of a old school gamer who is thourghaly bored of the same old turn based experiance over and over and over again.

Sadly if this remains turn based, oblvion has deffinatly hurt my desire to play this game, HOWEVER, I will still play without a doubt if they get it half as good as they claim it will be, as it will be a direct rival and IMO the deffinate superior to the other game quite similar to this one in gameplay aspects, not sure if I can say the name here or not but if not just censor it please don\'t mean to cause any trouble, but I speak of Runescape (which you have to pay to play if you want to enjoy the game beond lvl 50). Only problem with this one is the simple fact it\'s still in production and will be for a long time.

Please insert any nessary flames of my ignorance (Which I posses much of, more than you fools muhahahaha), counters to the idea or encouragment for the idea \"Here\".

Note: you don\'t have to encourage the idea as if it would actualy make it ingame, just agree to the fact Turn based is boring and you would like to have some real time fun.
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Baldur

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« Reply #5 on: April 04, 2006, 10:32:42 am »
Berzerk, i\'m actually with you(sorry haven\'t read the whole post but got to the dev-flaming thingy).

I\'m not with you that it\'s so easy to win a battle from pressing buttons, cause you need a certain strategy for every monster to do the best, though this is also included in \"real time\" fighting(as you so gracefully called it, though i don\'t know if it\'s called that so don\'t you be mad at me) along with much more.

As i\'ve seen it you can really control a battle, and that is good. NOw, here\'s the problem. If a roleplayer states his character is a valiant knight then he will have to fight like a valiant knight which is: Being an excellent swordsman, and if he can\'t already fight from the beginning by blocking excellently and swinging his sword with grace, he can\'t really defeat the evil over uberlord. This, i think is more for the \"training\" class in the community. I would say they\'re called players(not roleplayers so don\'t get confused) which develop their skills though training and not through talking.

The roleplay will have to betaken to a new level where roleplayers really have to become \"players\" part of the time to train the skills in combat.

Though, the battle in ES:O looks very easy so I could be completely wrong :S

Blah! Move on.

Nikodemus

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« Reply #6 on: April 04, 2006, 07:01:17 pm »
I\'m sorry for not reading the whole long post, but first words of it made me to remind somthing:
One of the reasons why ps combat system is the way it is, is because it\'s online game, with LAG. It is too big to allow such combat system as in morrowind. It is indeed great, best i have ever seen, but ps has LAG, morrowind is singleplayer and thus no LAG.



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stillesandro

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lag?
« Reply #7 on: April 04, 2006, 08:18:27 pm »
I do not agree, Nikodemus, because, if you wouldn\'t be able to use that fighting system due to lag, how could you explain the existince of online shooters such as Battlefield and all others?

I know that PS is not a multi-million dollar operation, but these games also need a lot of information.
to give you a good example of a free online-shooter that works: http://www.rasterwerks.com
this is not meant for the promotion of their site! but it shows that even a free game could work with all the information that is needed

for a FPS you need:
-the coordinates of the player
-the coordinates of all other players
-the [italic]precise[/italic] direction in which the player is aiming
-the precise direction in which all the other players aim
-the walls and such
-a lot more....

So if a free game can combine all this information, why should PS not?

Baldur

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« Reply #8 on: April 04, 2006, 08:40:21 pm »
Sounds reasonable, though CS and most other shooters are old and HL2 and Quake4? require pretty pretty addons on your comp.

*edit* Uh! Forgot UT*no comments*

clint8565

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« Reply #9 on: April 04, 2006, 09:37:42 pm »
Of course real-time is soooo much better than turn based (imo) but the problem isn\'t lag(except for dial-up) the real problem is when you use real-time fighting there quickly becomes a great distance between people with skill and those without. Turn-based gives everyone a fair chance because all you do is target and choose your attack/magic. I think the reason why turn-based is mostly used in mmorpg\'s is so that even those who have lesser skill(be it because they don\'t practice much, as in pure RPers, or they simply don\'t have the dexterity needed in their hands) can play just as well as those who have greater skill.

As for the D&D part, PS sort of incorporates that by the level design and npc placement. You can climb rocks and stuff to get a height advantage and you have limited mobility in some areas(arena halls, forest path, Akkaio warehouses, etc). You just don\'t get stat bonuses for them...

ps: I find it odd you didn\'t play any real-time rpg\'s before Oblivion... there\'s many of great ones out there ;)
« Last Edit: April 04, 2006, 09:38:31 pm by clint8565 »

Berzerk

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« Reply #10 on: April 04, 2006, 10:14:24 pm »
I have played other real time RPGs, Like I stated draken, played both 1 and 2 great games they are too, Just oblivion has thee best one I\'ve ever seen by far. And because it was so well done I came to realise how uninteresting turn based really was, guess I was in denial of turn based being not so good befor Oblivion. lol

Also everyone keeps mentioning Morrowind, I am speaking of Obivion, Morrowind\'s combat system is poor very poor, might as well have it turn based as all you do is run up and swing like a maniac and hope when your sword somehow goes through them without hurting them that you might actualy do damage.

Sorry for my other post being so long, I\'m natorious for long posts. Also why it would be harder to have real time combat like FPS do is of the fact of so much statistics burning through the server, it has to do it\'s background dice roles for everything determining how much damage delt, criticals, strength, agility, endurance and plenty of other fun stuff, twice as much info is being transfered around with stats constently thinking, one reason why it\'s harder to do in a RPG online.

As for skill causing seperation in players, well personaly I would like to be the best in the game not because I got the best setup and character, I want to be the best because I litteraly am thee best. Otherwise it becomes a power leveling game to reach the top of the combat tier. If someone is unskilled in combat than they should stick with NPC and creatures for battle till they get stronger and better at it, Skill is far more fun than luck and stats. Such as FPS game, your the best not because you got the best gun, your the best gunslinger in town and thats a fact. would be stupid to play a Shooter and win every time just cause your character has really high stats. RPGs are getting more Shooter like because its a great combat system that takes a long time to bore of, you feel like your in control which you are.

I\'ve played enough games where everything is a dice role, is gets plain boring in a real hurry when everything is the same basicly but different rewards, kinda like Runescape, I was a member in it for a long time, but everything is the same basicly, nothing is really unique at all in all the skills one reason people often get bored of it around lvl 70.

This was another long post by me, Berzerk your local moron. thank you for wasting your time reading this. lol

(Once again I\'d like to state that none of this was offencive or hostile in anyway to anyone or thing, I have to be careful of what I say and always make disclaimers like these cause I know some people can be easly offended.)
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Farren Kutter

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« Reply #11 on: April 04, 2006, 10:33:05 pm »
Berzerk is completely right in my opinion. The fact that players might not be as skilled is the point... In FPS games, some people who start out really bad get better after playing long enough, and after making friends who help them learn to play better. I used to suck at FPS games, but people taught me to play them, giving me tips, fighting against me to train me, etc. And with such a tight community that PS has, this would be very easy to accomplish.

BUT!!!! There would be many problems to making PS run on this system... First, it would render just about everything the team has worked on so far useless, or mostly so. They would have to completely remake the whole game, even the animations for the models and such. It is much better that they keep working as they are and improve the current system, which I am sure they are already working on.

BTW, Oblivion IS the best :D:D:D




Baldur

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« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2006, 10:47:00 pm »
Offtopic!

Getting mine in 2 days! ON my b-day! How good can it be *omg!**omg, why am i shouting omg in the middle of the night*

Can\'t wait to test it!

To get a bit back on topic. Start a MMORPG with real time fighting and you will sure be the first. The popularity would sprout though there would be no specific roleplay. All is built up on the gamer\'s skills, just like FPS games*ty, Farren*

I wouldn\'t want PS to change. It\'s still fresh and kickin\' and we still have a lot to look forward to so don\'t become critical yet, ol\' boy ;)

We\'ll see where this ends! :)

zanzibar

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« Reply #13 on: April 05, 2006, 11:36:04 am »
Oblivion.... yeah..... *cough* Daggerfall *cough*



Anyway, I think that I understand what the original poster is getting at.  You walk down a long hallway... then you make a turn, go through a doorway, and you suddenly find yourself standing in the middle of a large cathedral with a dozen archers shooting at you from different places in the room, or from the upper floor.  Unless you have ranged spells, you\'re screwed.


Being able to hold your breathe under water is another one.  Entire maps in PS will only be accessible by Nolthir and Kran because of this, but you can bet there will be spells and tools giving access to other races.
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