Explanation concerning death

[Father Sengus]

Hello

For some time I\'ve been wondering how to deal with death in Planeshift, since there is a Death Realm and all that. Can people die a permanent death, even though it\'s not due to old age?

Apparently so:

An Octarch can\'t be removed, nevertheless in some cases the Octarch was assassinated because it was too cruel, inept, dishonest, etc... One of the most famous cases is the one of Fertedian Dalko, Octarch of the 4th level, that was tied to a hypnotized Megaras and sent straight towards the Crystal.

So what decides whether a person dies a permanent death or gets the opportunity to come back through the Death Realm? And why didn\'t Fertedian Dalko (Grandfather of Sengus Dalko btw ) come back to life? He was only assassinated after all. How is that different than dying from falling down some stairs, or getting your head chopped off by a gladiator?

Also, in general, how long is the escape from the Death Realm supposed to take? Can a person who is killed in a barfight return to the bar before his murderer even finishes his drink, or is it supposed to take days? I assume, and hope, it\'s the latest but I can only speculate...

Surely many (if not all) of these things have been discussed before, but I still can\'t seem to find answers anywhere.

Of course, this is also a request for the devs to make information like this official, so people have facts to base their roleplaying on.

[Karyuu]

It\'s hard to roleplay a more serious death when escaping the DR takes less than three minutes ;) I think that even with more knowledge, players will go about handling death as they do now - with a sigh at the \"long walk\" and a mumbled complaint about the entire death (or in more irritated stages, a petition to GMs with a request of making it all easier :P).

Generally:

Originally posted by Kiva a long long time ago, in a forum far far awa-?
Everyone goes to the death realm, but the reason why PCs come back from there is because we\'re so smart and clever and all, and because we\'re all supposed to be heroes. However, eventually it won?t be as easy to get out as it is now. You\'ll have to go through a lot of things to get back up on the ground, and among the commoners, that\'s thought of as an impossible thing to do.

Perhaps the Octarch simply couldn\'t meet the Dark God\'s challenge. So yes, it will definitely take longer to get out - but only when it is fair to do so. Meaning, after people stop dying from frequent bugs and the Death Realm becomes even more captivating instead of being a chore.

[Father Sengus]

Haha I do find Kiva\'s explanation funny, but it doesn\'t seem very serious. If a stupid Kran can get out, why shouldn\'t an Octarch be able to, especially since there is supposed to be a way to bribe the Death God...

I do agree with everything else you said, but that explanation I just can\'t buy. There has to be something deeper...

No offense, but I think the whole Death Realm idea is so far away from our normal perception of death, that the devs simply haven\'t come up with a good explanation yet. And if they have, I couldn\'t be happier to be proven wrong

*curls into a little ball*

No smite please...

[Kixie]

Originally posted by Father Sengus
Haha I do find Kiva\'s explanation funny, but it doesn\'t seem very serious. If a stupid Kran can get out, why shouldn\'t an Octarch be able to, especially since there is supposed to be a way to bribe the Death God...

Perhaps the Octarch was corrupt? I have heard before (although it\'s not printed anywhere) from various sources that the death realm experience should be different for everyone, perhaps even increasing in challenge for higher crimes/moral coruptions. For example, while the path for an adventurous hero, who has fallen valliantly in the heat of battle for a just cause, may be straight, the path for a corrupt official or diplomat who has accepted a bribe from the Cabali and consequently poisoned, would have a path full of bottomless pits and other challenging dangers.

Just my two cents really, I foresee much opposition to the idea.

[Ralas]

Personally, I don\'t RP the DR, for now, anyway.  If my character ends up in the DR, (which I try to avoid), I just say he\'s injured and has had a weird dream that he can\'t really remember.  If he died IC, I probably wouldn\'t bring him back without a really good story providing the grounds to do so.  Ultimately, I think, the DR will provide that story.  Until then, I think it\'s best to either let death be permanent, or just not let it happen IC.  This does not mean that if you get killed by a monster you should stay in the DR until SB is realesed...just that you maybe shouldn\'t go around telling everyone IC that you were in the DR and escaped.

EDIT: (SP), Tense Correction

[Mentak]

my guess is that in the future, the developers will make it so that it takes hours to get out of the DR. I would like it so that you would have to be in groups inorder to get out. Rather than one person. It would seem more realistic.

[Under the moon]

Sheeples don\'t come back.

They die forever.

That is how I deal with it.

[Father Sengus]

Well, I\'m glad to see different people handle death in diferent ways. It shows that I\'m not the only one who doesn\'t know the official way to handle it...

And Kixie, I think your idea is funny though I can\'t stop thinking that it should be reversed. Feels like there\'s a bigger chance that he will be evil than good, and thus maybe enjoy giving the goody-two-shoes a hard time. I wish...

[Pestilence]

death is a tricky thing. Thought about it myself.

my first conclusion was that people of Yliakum wouldn\'t concider death the way we do. Fanatics shhould be even more willing to give up there lives and such as it\'s only pain in the end.

My second conclusion was that most people don\'t like the idea of roleplaying this. Playing death as it is in our world. Something that needs to be avoided at all cost.

Also wondered indeed what is it that makes me come back and others not seeing people have to die or we would have had an overpopulation becuase of exponential growth.

I mean even if it takes days imagine an army crawling out of the deathrealm after it was defeated. Makes a war kinda different if you have to fight the basic same army every week.

Also thought of ignoring this but it is already influencing things that are already ingame like guildwars. I\'m sure I killed the same guy atleast four times and still he returns to bug me

[Bnm85]

Hmm, I don\'t know. None of these or many other explanations on the internet are satisfying enough. It all seems to be a \"work-around\" of some sort.

This question actually applies to many MMORPGs out there. They all have their lore, with great wars or powerful figures being killed. And yet, a regular character returns to life just fine. If death isn\'t supposed to be role-played, then there shouldn\'t be a \"Death Realm\".

I found a few explanations that somewhat attempt to tackle the issue. For example:

\"The body is no longer intact\"

When a body has been decomposing, it\'s really not fit to contain a soul. A healer can\'t undo decomposition, as much as they wish they could. Otherwise, Monks would be able to turn a Necromancer\'s minions into the creatures they once were.

Also, if a corpse was subject to burning, dismemberment, or otherwise destroyed, a healer can\'t put it back together. A soul can\'t return to an incomplete body. This might be why there are so many casualties from [the wars]. You can\'t bring those people back. This also explains the ghosts that haunt some areas.

The Octarch was burned by the Azure Crystal, so perhaps there\'s nothing to return to.

This actually brings another question - why can you still fall to your death in the Death Realm, if it implies that you\'re just a \"soul\" there? It would be more appropriate if you could float. I suppose you can make an excuse that it\'s a way to \"torture a soul\" or whatever.

So, is this acceptable explanation? If there\'s still a body in more or less in-tact condition to return to, then one can be resurrected, otherwise they stay dead or become a potential minion for a Necromancer. On the other hand, some people live with some limbs missing (ie veterans of a war). Although they haven\'t died yet, does that mean if they do, they can\'t come back?

Then there\'s another problem. This is from the \"Elves\" description on PS site:

\"...in spite of the prohibition, some groups secretly belong to the cult of the dead, stealing corpses from the procedure of expulsion.\"

Just what kind of corpses are they stealing?

We can also assume the following explanation - it\'s very difficult to get out of the underworld, and only truly gifted do. We can stroke our big egos and assume that we get out because we\'re so smart and such.

Just IMO.

[Pestilence]

We could stroke our ego\'s fcourse but the problem would be the hero\'s of previous ages who don\'t get out

We could ofcourse say we are \"the chosen\"and thats why we return or something like that but many are playing ordinary people so how are they \"chosen\" to get out of the deathrealm while they don\'t seem to be enormous influences in the world

You could ofcourse say we are to insignificant then and slip through the cracks as the deathgod is busy busy busy, but then unfluencial guildleaders better not die

[Stephen McNaire]

I must mention before I say anything else that the obvious explanation is so we don\'t have to make a new character every time we manage to get ourselves killed:P. This is a game and since it\'s a fantasy we\'re already stretching reality.
I doubt there is a perfect explanation for most stuff, for how can there be? Creatures spawn, items appear out of nowhere. Sometimes things are made for the gameplay, not RPing:).
I know this may come as a shock to some, but PS is a video game:D. Not that I\'m saying you should look for explanations, go ahead, I enjoy reading them and some are really good. But don\'t...um...kill yourselves over it;).
[/Lecture]

Now that I got that off my chest, I think Bnm85 has a good idea. When we are in the DR our body remains where we died. If left alone we can return to them and resume our lives. Perhaps as part of the reward for passing the \'test\' of the DR, our bodies are restored to full health.
If someone does something to our bodies while they lie in \'limbo\' i.e. the elves that steal corpses, we cannot return and are dead forever. This would make it a doubly hideous crime to desecrate a corpse.
Perhapes that\'s a perk of belonging to a guild or group. Your companions will do things like guard your body until you return.

However the overview of Yliakum kinda destroys this and alot of the lines of thought already aired in this thread. (Copied here for those who don\'t feel like looking;))

[From Overview]
Waste

Ducts that have been dug out in the rock are used to dispose of human waste. Larger rubbish and bodies are simply thrown into almost vertical and apparently endless wells. Nobody seems to care about where all of this junk finally ends up, since the stalactite theory is only devised by some Xacha scientists and has not been proven yet. Dead bodies are eliminated the same way. Though discarding dead in such a callous fashion would seem rather shocking, neither of the two main faiths at Yliakum requires particular care nor reverence to dead bodies. To the people here, a body is simply a non-functional apparatus or an empty shell with no soul. However, nothing is ever thrown into the lake. The law forbids this disposal method not only out of courtesy to the Nolthrirs, but also to protect the seaweed population. Polluting the lake is one of the few crimes punished with death.

_______
So...I think we\'re all going to have to just decide to either RP that we got through because we are heros...or just ignore it and imagine it was a wierd dream like Ralas does:|.

On a side note...if Yliakum really is a stalactite in a huge cave...I wonder if there are people underneath...and if so, I wonder what they think about the sky constantly raining dead bodies onto the roofs of their houses?

\"Jimmy! What was that noise!\"
\"Aw nothing pop, just another of them strange rock fellows\"
\"Well...go ahead and get it, we can use it to repair that gap in the southern wall...\"

:D

[Belark]

Originally posted by Father Sengus
If a stupid Kran can get out, why shouldn\'t an Octarch be able to, especially since there is supposed to be a way to bribe the Death God... :P

I do agree with everything else you said, but that explanation I just can\'t buy. There has to be something deeper...

No offense, but I think the whole Death Realm idea is so far away from our normal perception of death, that the devs simply haven\'t come up with a good explanation yet. And if they have, I couldn\'t be happier to be proven wrong :D

*curls into a little ball*

No smite please...

Hey, Krans no stupid! We speak funny but we no stupid!
[Where\'s the prejudice-commity when you need one;) )

*edit*

Originally posted by Bnm85
Also, if a corpse was subject to burning, dismemberment, or otherwise destroyed, a healer can\'t put it back together. A soul can\'t return to an incomplete body. This might be why there are so many casualties from [the wars]. You can\'t bring those people back. This also explains the ghosts that haunt some areas.[/i]

The Octarch was burned by the Azure Crystal, so perhaps there\'s nothing to return to.

This actually brings another question - why can you still fall to your death in the Death Realm, if it implies that you\'re just a \"soul\" there? It would be more appropriate if you could float. I suppose you can make an excuse that it\'s a way to \"torture a soul\" or whatever.

So, is this acceptable explanation? If there\'s still a body in more or less in-tact condition to return to, then one can be resurrected, otherwise they stay dead or become a potential minion for a Necromancer. On the other hand, some people live with some limbs missing (ie veterans of a war). Although they haven\'t died yet, does that mean if they do, they can\'t come back?


We can also assume the following explanation - it\'s very difficult to get out of the underworld, and only truly gifted do. We can stroke our big egos and assume that we get out because we\'re so smart and such.

Just IMO. :)

Good catch!

When speaking of the dismembered veterans, this harm is an old scar[big, though, but yet a scar] if you survived it! That means the soul got used to the dismembered part[arm in this case] and formed it self after the scircumstances. Now the soul has one arm and is living well as you live well without your arm. Though if you bleed to death and die you feel ill and the soul does too. The bleeding would continue if you died and went back to that body again and that would just cause more damage then treat. The soul would\'ve had heavy injuries as i think the soul is our mental being dealing over the fluids which creates our emotions, therefore i think once the body has started to decompose[which starts when you\'ve gone cold. Maybe not for Krans but the severed limb could do the trick] it will reject it!

About the zombies you mentioned Elves create. That is kust imposed magic on bodies. The magic rules them, not the soul. With magic the Elves can do whatever they want with them cause they\'re empty scales able to be filled again[though not with a soul, if you get what i mean!]. The Elves acts as Puppet Masters(goodie, i didn\'t have to google it to find the sickest , morbidest explanation of how you control zombies...)

Hope that helps! And please, discuss this with me :)

Please avoid posting two or more successive posts before others have replied. Just edit your last post to add new information :) Thanks! --Karyuu