Author Topic: automining  (Read 3015 times)

Nikodemus

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Re: automining
« Reply #15 on: March 26, 2007, 02:03:46 pm »
Mazog, really nice post. I like when a poster looks at problem from from different sides.
Automated mining would indeed drag in people who aren't RPing, bug going afk. We been experiencing this once already, when the system allowed for easy automated mining with use of some additional software. This was really bad for RPing.
But so is the fact you need to press a key every 10 sec or so to dig, damaging to RP. What the problem there is, you can't activate mining, while talking without bigger problems. So, some people instead of talking, are keeping to press right key every 10 seconds and no later.
Although both problems stand against each another, i believe the second solution causes less problems. It is still automated, because you don't have to press a key everytime you swing the pick.

Although it is indeed a bit silient in the mines, for me it isn't because you need to keep pressing a key. Most of the time i just have nothing to talk about. When i have, i just type in beetwen pressing the mining key.
<pressing mining key><enter><writing message><double enter><pressing mining key, followed by moving if needed> and repeat.

I believe what we need is a way to hide the annoying activating mining over and over again. people shouldn't get annoyed by repeating the same action over and over again. If the procedure to mine will be enough complicated and varrying from attempt to attempt, it will be fun, not annoyance.
If we need to prospect (find) good spot first, where is x amount of not always the same resource, the ming will be somewhat more fun.
If there will be mines, possibly in stone labirynths, dangerous area, miners will have to look at their back and hire guards too maybe.
The mines could need  maintanace. Bringing proper resources for maintaning what got broken and too old, to be sure the tunel won't collapse.
Maybe not all resources we need may be find in mines? One has to search (prospect) form them on bigger area? We could find spots, which we claim rights for some time (like to a monster) and mine till we take all (small amounts every spot)

Ming may be alot more fun that it is now. It just shouldn't that monotony as now. \o/



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zanzibar

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Re: automining
« Reply #16 on: March 26, 2007, 02:34:49 pm »
The premise is faulty.  You're assuming that if these people weren't mining or camping, they would be roleplaying.  This simply isn't true.  Why do you think there are so few people on when the NPCs are down?  Why do you think the mines are so crowded during the same period?

No.  You won't be able to force anyone to RP.  Make the game fun, take care of the problem players, that's all you can do.
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Idoru

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Re: automining
« Reply #17 on: March 26, 2007, 02:48:09 pm »
And you mention no-singing or jokes at the mines, you don't remember the platinum mine then.  :)

I was thinking something very similar about the platinum mine when I hear Mazog's post. It used to me very entertaining being down in the platinum mine, sove etremely funny things used to happn (generally IC aswell). I wonder what it is that stops this happening at the gold mine. Also IMO it seems like you are more likely to find conversation at the iron mine than the gold mine, and more people willing to chat at one of the mines than the other. I cant understand why this is myself but it does seem to be true.

Maybe the platinum mine was more interesting to work because of the extra time it took to get there, to get back and the much higher value of the resource that made people not so desperate to get every last little bit of ore out of the ground in the shortest amount of time.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2007, 02:51:04 pm by Idoru »

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zanzibar

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Re: automining
« Reply #18 on: March 26, 2007, 02:55:48 pm »
Things do happen at the gold mine, but they're extremely rare and often for (usually dumb) OOC reasons.  It seems that this has become the story of the game though.
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Mazog

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Re: automining
« Reply #19 on: March 27, 2007, 11:21:14 am »
Perhaps there is another solution...

Warning: strange ideas ahead:

For a moment, consider the player base Planeshift is current looking to attract:  mature roleplayers willing and able to cope with a product still in alpha.  This demographic has, for whatever reasons, a greater than typical overlap with the subset of the general population that has the means and desire to write a reasonably sophisticated bot.  While I don't have hard statistics to support this claim, it seems obvious enough.  The intersection of these groups remains a small minority in the game, yet its size outnumbers the development team by at least one order of magnitude.  If these postulates are not contended, I'll continue.

Creating a bot is easy.  Mix one part repetitive, monotonous task with one part hacker; add sugar, caffeine, and/or tasty beverage of choice.  Simmer at room temperature overnight, stirring occasionally.  If you want to create robust and effective bots simply add the constraint that bots will be banned as discovered, beginning with the most obvious (read: broken) ones.

You may ask why players with the tools, talent, and time would choose to do such a thing in lieu of jumping onboard the dev team and helping out there.  Perhaps their specialties lie outside the realm of what the dev team requires.  Perhaps extracurricular demands on their time would make them a poor team member.  Perhaps they are legally constrained from doing so, owing to the nature of their employer.  Perhaps they simply don't wish to.  Why do you play a warrior archetype instead of a mage, or vice-versa?  It's what you find fun.  For the players, PlaneShift is, after all, a game.

Like every other commercial MMORPG out there, PlaneShift provides all the ingredients necessary for bots, save those available at your local convenience store.  In addition, PlaneShift attempts to attract the flotsam of patient, creative gamers that seek to affect their shared world in profound ways.  Some of those players will look beyond the bounds of the basic client to accomplish this task.  The traditional means of curtailing such behavior are either increased monitoring and bans, which entail high administrative costs, or increased interface complexity, which only makes it easier to hide a bot among the players preoccupied with jockeying the controls.

Nobody wants to see the zombie bot dogpile.  Enlisting in the everlasting armies of the undead to maintain character parity is even less palatable,  yet existing solutions have not worked in similar games.  Perhaps PlaneShift should entertain the alternatives.  I'd like to offer up the SPC as a potential avenue for exploration.

SPC...WTF?

The SPC is the "semi-player-character" or "scripted player character".  It falls somewhere between a PC and an NPC and is driven by player-written scripts produced with a tailored and authorized scripting language incorporated into the game.  SPCs can act with much of the autonomy of a PC, but can also maintain a persistent presence in similar fashion to an NPC.  An example may be more illuminative.

Consider a bank teller for a guild-run bank...a noble and needed profession, but currently unplayable.  As an NPC, it will be found wanting.  Each banking guild will assuredly have unique business rules for which the developers could never accommodate.  As a PC, it requires a player willing to do nothing but wait for customers all day, every day, which is equally impossible.  With the tools of an SPC at one's disposal, the task becomes trivial.  A scripted teller can spend every day processing requests, accepting deposits, handling loans, relaying messages...even making tea.  With judicious incorporation of some instant message protocol, a player could actually maintain a real presence to handle the occasional task that is not sufficiently mundane to include in the script.  The guild's bank teller, while on the job, would be no more spontaneous or vivacious as their real equivalent, but no less, either.

At the end of the day the player can come home from their job, relieve the SPC from his job, stroll to the tavern and, using the full client, assist the character in blowing a day's wage on wine, women, and song.  The grind stays in the coffeepot; the treadmill stays in the gym.

That's automation done right.  That's roleplaying.  That's breathing life into a virtual world.


...and keep in mind:  If you can't see the light, you are likely to be eaten by a grue.

Idoru

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Re: automining
« Reply #20 on: March 27, 2007, 12:14:32 pm »
That idea is actually quite interesting, It would be excellent in the circumstances that you describe. The only flaw would of course be people, as ever, trying to exploit this for personal gain. I understand why you choose a banker and not a miner for your example. But that is where, IMO, the problem lies. A player using this system to mine would without a doubt leave there character (Bot) working away at the mine, only coming back occassionally to visit an NPC to sell their wares. Unless of course the system is sufficiently advanced enough to dispense with even that requirement and make it possible to script the visit to the vendor aswell. Even going as far to make it plausible to dual client so the miner never has to actually leave the mine, ever.

I think in a perfect world, one in which people could be trusted to not exploit things like this, it would be fantastic. Unfortunatly even Yliakum isnt so perfect.

And yes, as things currently stand it is easy to create a bot, whether using off the shelf macro software or self coded scripts. That is why the Devs and GMs (and hopefully the vast majority of the player base) take such a dim view of such things and why they earn players a ban when caught.

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Dimyxa

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Re: automining
« Reply #21 on: March 31, 2007, 07:19:25 pm »
Hmmm... there shouldn't be auto-mining but mine-till-u-get-ore could free up some time to Rp in mines with hard-to-get resourses, im trying to talk with ppl when mining but then it takes me double or more time to get same amount of ores if i was just pressing shortcut & running from spot to spot... also i suppose our pets would be able to make a lot of actions & i hope mining too  ;)

I like Mazog's idea but still need to re-read it to fully get the concept  :P

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Didar.
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Under the moon

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Re: automining
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2007, 01:25:04 am »
Mine once, and do not stop until you get ore? Now that is an idea I like. It frees you up for talking while you mine, yet keeps you there at the same time.

zanzibar

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Re: automining
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2007, 03:58:30 am »
Mine once, and do not stop until you get ore? Now that is an idea I like. It frees you up for talking while you mine, yet keeps you there at the same time.

It still requires you to be physically at your computer, but not as much as before.
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Dimyxa

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Re: automining
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2007, 05:09:25 pm »
Mine once, and do not stop until you get ore? Now that is an idea I like. It frees you up for talking while you mine, yet keeps you there at the same time.

It still requires you to be physically at your computer, but not as much as before.

Yes, it reqires u to be at computer but it will really free up time to RP in mine where u need 3-5+ tries to get ore (especially in gold, especially now, when it's quite hard to get one) u will anyway miss some time if u get ore while typing but agree it's not like pressing DigGold Shortcut all the time  :D
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