SCoY

[r.guppy]

Originally posted by Valbrandr
What is everyone really argueing about here?  Most of the people I see argueing against the aims of this organization, dont seem to be the types to be against it.  It would be one thing if you didnt agree with its aims/goals but just to nit pick is not so cool.  But what Easton is really going to need is help.  Ive done this exact thing before.. and its tough.  Trying to keep everything organized and everyone informed.  No easy task is ahead of him.  Thankfully it seems like he has plenty of good help.  But instead of saying why you dont like it, make suggestions about how it should be changed, or join and try to help fix/guide the organization itself.  Sitting back is really the worst thing to do I think.

  Why ?

  If I have a problem with a guild I talk to that guild only. If a guild has a problem with me or a member of mine they talk to my [non] guild. Not a group of guilds, I call that airing you dirty linen in public.

 If the problem is say a evil one and SCoY have evil alined guilds in it. I cant see what you hope to achieve as any discussion would be against the aims of evil guilds, and the same applies to good aligned guilds.

 You said the recent unrest was a good example of what you were  formed to do ? I disagree as the numbers of players turning up not in guilds proved they too care about these matters, and indeed want a say in the outcome, in your SCoY they have no voice.

 

By Eolius
 If certain guilds are not invited, well... you have to think about the quality of the guilds that nowdays populate Yliakum. There are guilds with no purpose at all, guilds that are mass recruiting without having any standards as far as they\'re members are concerned, in short, guilds that are like mushrooms, now you see them and tomorrow they are gone.

By Easton
Well, you are the one confused Milady.. He was refering to how Janner was annoyed that his guild was not invited in the beginning. Because in the beginning we only invited guilds.

 I am curious which do you class me in ?
 I want no part in it as my opening post in my thread states I am not a man to lead or be led. I have a (non)guild of individuals, who enjoy the freedom Janner\'s Way gives them. To join SCoY and be bound by oath to follow the decision of a council made up of a collection of diverse and opposing minds, some of whom may be personally objectional to each other, would be totally against what Janner\'s Way is about.

[Father Sengus]

Why ?
 If the problem is say a evil one and SCoY have evil alined guilds in it. I cant see what you hope to achieve as any discussion would be against the aims of evil guilds, and the same applies to good aligned guilds.

Whatever happened to Chaos and Order, Janner? Just because guilds are of different alignment it does not mean that they cannot strive for the same thing. Look at the Dark Empire and compare it to any evil guild that wants to spread chaos and mayhem all over Yliakum. Then compare the Dark Empire to many of the guilds in the SCoY who are looking to create order in Yliakum society. Which do you think we would rather be assosciated to?
People need to stop thinking that all good guilds are about exterminating evil, vice versa (those guilds are just a result of lack of imagination.) An \"evil problem\" does not have to concern all evil guilds...

EDIT: More importantly, people need to stop thinking that this organisation is fighting evil. They fight to hold the peace...

[r.guppy]

Chaos and order same thing two sides of a coin they cant agree, good evil two sides of a coin they cant agree.

[Eolius]

Why ?     If I have a problem with a guild I talk to that guild only. If a guild has a problem with me or a member of mine they talk to my [non] guild. Not a group of guilds, I call that airing you dirty linen in public.     If the problem is say a evil one and SCoY have evil alined guilds in it. I cant see what you hope to achieve as any discussion would be against the aims of evil guilds, and the same applies to good aligned guilds.     You said the recent unrest was a good example of what you were formed to do ? I disagree as the numbers of players turning up not in guilds proved they too care about these matters, and indeed want a say in the outcome, in your SCoY they have no voice.

I think i was clear enough when i stated that SCoY is a organisation that have the purpose of mediating  conflicts between guilds. Maby it was skipped while reading, so here it goes again: Our purpose is to ensure the well-being of all in Yliakum by learning about and preventing any conflicts from destroying the peace that we all hold dear. Since SCoY is actualy a guild reunion or coalition (call it what you like) it would be impossible to have individuals that aren\'t a part of a guild attending our meetings. This fact is caused by a simple reason: if we were to invite all the non-guilded people in Yliakum in a council, please tell me what would be the size of the meeting and how long would one of these meetings last when 200 or more people were to express they\'re point of view on one or more problems. Instead of telling us what\'s wrong, please come up with a solution. Everybody can criticise but not everybody can offer solutions. I am certain that if a representative of \" the numbers of players turning up not in guilds\" would wish to join us sustaining the point of view of the people he/she represents, nobody would have nothing against that representative. As far as the matter of evil guilds being part of SCoY is concerned, i would like to remind you that everybody, evil or good has the right to an opinion. An example would be yourself, you are the only one trying to trow mud on SCoY, yet, we listen to you and we debate your points of view.

I want no part in it as my opening post in my thread states I am not a man to lead or be led.

If you think that a guild is about leading people then you should perhaps stop talking about guilds since you know nothing about them. A guild is an organisation where people that have the same goal, work together towards achieving that goal. Nobody leads nobody and nobody gives orders to nobody.

I have a (non)guild of individuals, who enjoy the freedom Janner\'s Way gives them.

\"I have a guild\" is a statement that demonstrates possesion and leadership. I never talked about Protectors as \"my guild\" as that guild belongs to the Protectors not to me. Also, creating a guild for people that do not want to be in a guild is an oximoron. Freedom... i don\'t think that there is a guild that takes the freedom away from it\'s members or, if there are such guilds i don\'t know why people would join them. When we accept a new member, we always tell him \"Please, go look at our website, read the rules, and if those rules define you then we will gladly welcome you amongst us. If you think that there are rules that are contradicting with your way of being, then perhaps you should search for another guild because we don\'t want to force you to do things you don\'t want to\".

Chaos and order same thing two sides of a coin they cant agree, good evil two sides of a coin they cant agree.

You are wrong to think that there can be light without darkness or good without the evil. It is only a matter of balance. SKoY has the purpose of helping that balance to exist. You can think of us as the edge of the coin, nore good nore evil. There is a middle point between any 2 defined points. That\'s where chaos and order, good and evil, darkness and light will always meet. And SKoY is there to give them a warm welcome and to keep that middle point in the middle.

[r.guppy]

Originally posted by Eolius
I think i was clear enough when i stated that SCoY is a organisation that have the purpose of mediating  conflicts between guilds. Maby it was skipped while reading, so here it goes again: Our purpose is to ensure the well-being of all in Yliakum by learning about and preventing any conflicts from destroying the peace that we all hold dear.

I don\'t think I missed anything, as I said \"If I have a problem with a guild I talk to that guild only. If a guild has a problem with me or a member of mine they talk to my [non] guild. Not a group of guilds, I call that airing you dirty linen in public.\"

Since SCoY is actualy a guild reunion or coalition (call it what you like) it would be impossible to have individuals that aren\'t a part of a guild attending our meetings. This fact is caused by a simple reason: if we were to invite all the non-guilded people in Yliakum in a council, please tell me what would be the size of the meeting and how long would one of these meetings last when 200 or more people were to express they\'re point of view on one or more problems.

but your mission statement says:
\"Who?
All guilds and/or citizens[/i] who wish to promote the general well-being in Yliakum may participate.\"

Instead of telling us what\'s wrong, please come up with a solution.

IMO There isn\'t one, it has been tried before unsuccessfully. The same problems exist now as they did then.

Everybody can criticise but not everybody can offer solutions. I am certain that if a representative of \" the numbers of players turning up not in guilds\" would wish to join us sustaining the point of view of the people he/she represents, nobody would have nothing against that representative. As far as the matter of evil guilds being part of SCoY is concerned, i would like to remind you that everybody, evil or good has the right to an opinion. An example would be yourself, you are the only one trying to trow mud on SCoY, yet, we listen to you and we debate your points of view.

You say you listen to my points of view but accuse me of slinging mud; it is a contradictory statement. Like the whole concept of SCoY; full of potential conflicts.

If you think that a guild is about leading people then you should perhaps stop talking about guilds since you know nothing about them. A guild is an organisation where people that have the same goal, work together towards achieving that goal. Nobody leads nobody and nobody gives orders to nobody.

Why is it so important for guilds to have ranks and structure? Why does every guild have a Leader or Leaders? Why do members strive to work their ways up the ranks? I have turned away dozens of players from joining my guild, because when I ask them why they want to join they say \"I want to be in a guild\".  I /tell them to read up about guilds in the Planeshift forums and come back to me if they still want to belong to Janner\'s Way. Many go off and join another guild. Is it because they want to belong to a guild with stronger structure and leadership than mine; they want to be led?

\"I have a guild\" is a statement that demonstrates possesion and leadership. I never talked about Protectors as \"my guild\" as that guild belongs to the Protectors not to me.

I said \"I have a (non)guild of individuals\" I also say \"I have a family\", \"I have a wife\" and \"I have neighbours\" but I am not implying that I own them.

Also, creating a guild for people that do not want to be in a guild is an oximoron. Freedom... i don\'t think that there is a guild that takes the freedom away from it\'s members or, if there are such guilds i don\'t know why people would join them.

Here you will see that planning for groups other than guilds is in the pipeline. So when this is implemented how many guilds will become groups or such?

When we accept a new member, we always tell him \"Please, go look at our website, read the rules, and if those rules define you then we will gladly welcome you amongst us. If you think that there are rules that are contradicting with your way of being, then perhaps you should search for another guild because we don\'t want to force you to do things you don\'t want to\".

But if the rules of SCoY don\'t fit you, you get the members bombarding you with arguments, trying to persuade you that you should accept them. And if you were to be persuaded to join you must swear an oath to do things even if you don\'t want to. Thank you, but NO thank you.

You are wrong to think that there can be light without darkness or good without the evil. It is only a matter of balance. SKoY has the purpose of helping that balance to exist. You can think of us as the edge of the coin, nore good nore evil. There is a middle point between any 2 defined points. That\'s where chaos and order, good and evil, darkness and light will always meet. And SKoY is there to give them a warm welcome and to keep that middle point in the middle.

I have never said that I think there can be light without dark or good without evil. The SCoY seems to me to be abject chaos disguised as order. There could only be one thing that all guilds could agree on and that would be to disagree.

[Easton]

Originally posted by r.guppy
But if the rules of SCoY don\'t fit you, you get the members bombarding you with arguments, trying to persuade you that you should accept them. And if you were to be persuaded to join you must swear an oath to do things even if you don\'t want to. Thank you, but NO thank you.

1- We are simply trying to answer your questions. If you\'d like i can stop responding to you...

2- ugh.. its sooo obvious we don\'t want anyone to be apart of this if they don\'t want to be. We want everyone to join, but we expect some to not, and we are okay with that. We hope that as people see how the council works and is put to the test, people will begin to decide we aren\'t so bad.

3- Well, if we didn\'t have an oath like we do, then how would we garuntee that people wouldn\'t just get fed up and leave if a decision didn\'t go their way? This council is for guilds who are willing to compromise, and without you saying anything, janner, i know you are not at all willing to have any sort of compromise, and because of that, i am feeling a lot more disrespect for you and your guild overall. I supported your \"(non) guild\" from the very beginning, and i am much more inclined to not do so. Not because you refuse to join the council, i accept that with the upmost respect, but because of your attacks on the council. You have provided us with nothing to work on. In fact, the only way we could improve ourselves in your eyes is if we simply dissolved and forgot anything every happened.

Off of the sticky in the guilds forum:
Defining Your Guild

A successful guild takes a fair amount of planning. It is best to take time to clearly define what your guild is about and why they exist before physically creating it. As this is a roleplaying game, the longest lasting and biggest guilds have a reason for being who they are. Some exist to wreak havoc, some exist to spread peace, some unite around a certain god, etc.

Along with the guilds goals, many guilds like to have a history written up. A short (or long) story outlining how the guild came to start. This doesn\'t mean a story about how you were sitting at your computer one day and said to yourself, \"Hey! This game roxs, I\'m gonna create a 1337 guild!\" The story should be written as it pertains to your character.

That is for you Janner. Take a good long look..

Janner wrote:
I have never said that I think there can be light without dark or good without evil. The SCoY seems to me to be abject chaos disguised as order. There could only be one thing that all guilds could agree on and that would be to disagree.
[/QUOTE]

I invite you to come and listen to one of our meetings. Maybe then you can make this statement valid by backing it up with some form of the vaguest evidence.

Stay Safe,
Easton Ghent

[Eolius]

What i don\'t understand is your motivation to discredit SCoY. You said you don\'t need us. Fine. That\'s all there is to it.In RL, would you like the pshichologist job to be deleted from the face of the earth just because you don\'t need one? I don\'t think so... Maby you don\'t need us... So what? That\'s not a reason to disband SCoY. And by the way, you are saying that SCoY is full of conflicts thus you never attended none of our meetings. Don\'t you think it is a bit argumentativ that statement? I can asure you that we had and we\'ll never have any kind of conflicts inside SCoY.

[Father Sengus]

Instead of telling us what\'s wrong, please come up with a solution.

IMO There isn\'t one, it has been tried before unsuccessfully. The same problems exist now as they did then.

I don\'t understand you either, Janner. If there is no sollution to the problems and this organisation is bound to fail like its predecessors, why do you insist on posting here? Do you want them to disband right away, without giving it a shot? What are you trying to achieve through this conversation?

[r.guppy]

Originally posted by Father Sengus

Instead of telling us what\'s wrong, please come up with a solution.

IMO There isn\'t one, it has been tried before unsuccessfully. The same problems exist now as they did then.

I don\'t understand you either, Janner. If there is no sollution to the problems and this organisation is bound to fail like its predecessors, why do you insist on posting here? Do you want them to disband right away, without giving it a shot? What are you trying to achieve through this conversation?

  Because if no one says anything, no one will see what is wrong, and why should I tell them what to do, it\'s their idea let them fail or succeed, it is up to them ..the point of a forum is to post ones thoughts and ideas and hear what people have to say, you then rethink your idea depending on the input you get.

 NOT BLINDLY DEFEND YOURSELF  TO A POINT WHERE SOME GET UPSET BECAUSE THEIR INPUT FALLS ON DEAF EARS.

 That is what I did, when I first posted \"Janner\'s Way\" it was short, I was criticised and given advice which I used in a positive way developing my idea and my initial post now reflects this.

PS Thank you to those who gave me that input, good or bad.

[Eolius]

History belongs to those who tryed... That\'s all i have to say.

[Pestilence]

I think what most people are saying is that positive citique and critique on what could be better is something that can help, but that many of your critique isn\'t of that kind. Specially in your first posts.

I also sometimes feel that with your first accusation being disproven you are looking for loopholes to make it look like you were atleast partially right. This nitpicking to get that isn\'t a kind of critique I think helps.

Also I agree that you don\'t always have to have a solution to point out something that might be faulty, bur it all depends on why you are sayinig it.

If people feel you are truely saying it to help I don\'t think people will take it the wrong way. If you are pointing it out becuase you really think it can be done better people might not like hearing it but will respect it as your opinion, but I don\'t get those feelings from your posts.

People not in SCoY have even pointed this out so I don\'t feel I am alone in this or feeling overprotective.

I seriously like to ask you to look over your posts and ask yourself if you are really posting for the right reasons becuase I truely feel like there is somekind of personal reason for you to take this the way you do.

[r.guppy]

Originally posted by Pestilence
I think what most people are saying is that positive citique and critique on what could be better is something that can help, but that many of your critique isn\'t of that kind. Specially in your first posts.

I also sometimes feel that with your first accusation being disproven you are looking for loopholes to make it look like you were atleast partially right. This nitpicking to get that isn\'t a kind of critique I think helps.

Also I agree that you don\'t always have to have a solution to point out something that might be faulty, bur it all depends on why you are sayinig it.

If people feel you are truely saying it to help I don\'t think people will take it the wrong way. If you are pointing it out becuase you really think it can be done better people might not like hearing it but will respect it as your opinion, but I don\'t get those feelings from your posts.

People not in SCoY have even pointed this out so I don\'t feel I am alone in this or feeling overprotective.

I seriously like to ask you to look over your posts and ask yourself if you are really posting for the right reasons becuase I truely feel like there is somekind of personal reason for you to take this the way you do.

 First post.
\"I have made my thoughts on this well known in my Guild thread.

So this is not a new idea of yours as Valbrandr said. \"We have talked before about this idea.. it was so long ago I thought you had given up the idea.\"\"
 Only a comment did not know it was an old idea.

Second post.
\"Ok here is something else to think about, the recent unrest of last night was announced it was to take place where and when.. where were the town Militiia?

Perfect chance for them to do there thing, to keep the peace, where were they?

Or was it as i think [ me alone thinks ] there was a conflict of interest, in that leaders support both SCoY and Militia.\"
 Again I did not know Militia was for NPCs only, nothing wrong there.
 I assure you non of this is a personal attack on anyone. At the moment i am ill and i am not at my best.

[Eolius]

I believe that if you put enough soul into something, nothing will be impossible. Why should we stop trying to create something if others failed before us? What would have happened with humanity if everybody saw things as you do? We would still be in the stone age and not able to talk now using fancy computers connected to an impossible-to-build-because-it-is-too-big network. Also, the only things you would see when you would turn your eyes to the sky would be birds and clouds because everybody used to believe that man would never fly, just 100 years ago. Oh, and the earth would still be flat.

About the militia, there is no conflict of intherest between SCoY and the aforementioned organisation and it would be preety impossible for such a thing to occur since both share common grounds. I totaly agree with Pestilence, constructive criticism is one thing and loosing ourselves in loopholes generated by semantics is another thing. Constructive criticism works like this: \"you did that and i think it is wrong, i would have done it this way\". Destructive criticism though is: \"you did that and i think it is wrong.\"

[Proglin]

Is that really you Janner? I always known you as a smart and thoughtfull person. I am a member of the SCoY, and I support it at the fullest!

Once, we decided something, and I was the only one against the matter. I felt kind of bad, and wondered if the SCoY really was worth being in. But then Easton and Ogu came to me and explained me some things. They made clear to me why the council voted against me. In the end, the matter was resolved, in a peacefull, gentle way. It turns out i was wrong...

It was so clear to me, my way was the best way, and yet the entire council voted against me... They corrected my mistake, before I even made it, avoiding further complications. My point is, I believe in the SCoY and it\'s actually doing good things. a lot know more then one.

Anyway... If the SCoY wasn\'t there, not only me would make that mistake, but 22 proud dwarves, that respect my authority in The Way of the Hammer as well.

Come on Janner, you know me ... And with all do respect. Let\'s get off eachothers back here, and trust the people you (once) called friends on their word.

[hit me with all you want, will reply to all of you after my 8 day snowboarding trip ]

[Gris]

I have read through the thread and have only one comment. I don\'t really have a problem with ScOY\'s goals or methods. I have a problem with the name. I am a citizen of Yliakm and you are not my council. You may say you are not governmental, but the names implies that you are. Maybe you could be the sworn council of guilds or something like that. This is just an opinion from a simple citizen and nothing more.

Gris