Author Topic: PlaneShift website criticism (extensive)  (Read 9967 times)

Netty

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PlaneShift website criticism (extensive)
« on: March 14, 2006, 01:44:12 am »
Not sure if this is a correct forum to post this but there doesn\'t seem to be a specific one dedicated to \"website feedback\", so I\'m posting it here. Feel free to move this thread to an appropriate forum, if this one isn\'t.

And by the way, I have done the \"search\" on similar topics, so what I\'m posting here is an addition to what\'s already been said, as well as a more recent take on the website situation.

To be frank, the current website isn\'t very well constructed or organized. The whole feeling is rather unprofessional, no offense.

The very first thing that jumps out is the useless flash intro sequence, which doesn\'t match the main website\'s colors at all. Any good web developer and designer knows that this is a no-no for a website with a lot of news updates. It really should go straight to the point or to the main_01.html page, which should be renamed to index.html. Leave the intros for the \"Media\" section.

Once it gets to the main site, it uses the unnecessary flash at the top with what is called a \"Mystery Meat Navigation\" with a link to the forums. If you\'re curious about \"Mystery Meat Navigation\", check Web Pages that Suck site. It\'s a really horrible approach to a web design. There should be an easily accessible forum link on the front page but it should be clear and obvious rather than hidden inside a mystery meat nagivation.

Then comes the clumsy looking graphic of a \"dwarf\" that merges down into a dark brown color, which isn\'t even the main background color. The end result is that the dwarf\'s \"trail\" abruptly ends in an ugly \"block\" at the bottom of the page. At least correct the main page\'s background color to the same color that the dwarf\'s body merges into.

Moreover, once you go to other pages like \"Story\" and \"Overview\", the dwarf\'s \"trail\" is broken up. There is a visible gap in it. That looks extremely unattractive and unprofessional. Yes, I tested it in Firefox.

The formatting in \"Pictures\" section is again broken up. In fact, the screenshots that are seen on the main page and throughout the site look out of place and some of them don\'t load at all. Leave the screenshots for a \"Screenshot\" section or organize them better at least. They just look like they don\'t belong.

The \"Races\" section uses very pixelated and jaggy graphics for each race. It looks like the graphics were taken from the old \"PlaneShift MUD\" site. What we know, however, is that the high resolution, high quality drawings of each race exist. Take a look at the \"PlaneShift France\" site - the guy uses those high resolution drawings on his site. He most likely got in touch with Luca Pancallo to obtain them. So, the question is why are the old and ugly versions still used instead of the smooth and beautiful ones? In fact, on the French PS site, we can see the drawings for both genders for many races - something which isn\'t even on the main PS site. We can see male Diaboli, female Xacha, male Nolthrir and Dermorian, female Ynnwnn and so on. Something like that would\'ve been nice to have on the main site. At least the fans would have an idea of what some of the non-implemented races or genders are supposed to look like. It would help with fanart contribution as well. At the very least, it would look more professional.

Examining the old \"PlaneShift MUD\" site and the PlaneShift flash intro, we can see that there are a lot of good looking 3D renderings of the PlaneShift world. Anything from Yliakum panorama to the sewers. The rendering or drawing of Laanx tower has some sort of flying creatures circling it, and what looks like a moss hanging from it. Basically, a very cool effect. Why isn\'t that used on the main site somewhere? Why isn\'t it at least available in the \"3D Renders\" section? PlaneShift graphics quality can and will change, so using the in-game graphics for the site can end up looking outdated very quickly once the graphics are updated. However, utilizing an already untapped wealth of good looking renderings for the site design could\'ve given it quite a bit of longevity, no matter how many graphical and other revisions the game itself goes through. Just seems like a big waste to me.

Another problem is the account creation link is hidden within the \"Download\" section. Most other professional MMORPG sites have a clear link/button for \"Account Creation\" or \"Sign-up\". Once you get to the account creation page, it looks like a completely different website.

Doing a little research, I found that it looks like the old PlaneShift site, so clearly it has not been updated like the rest of the site. One of the responses by \"acraig\" has stated that it\'s because the registration page is on Fragnetics server, which is different from the main site. Apparently, the \"Laanx Fragnetics\", as well as this forum are being managed by \"Andew Craig\". My question is why can\'t Luca Pancallo and Andrew Craig negotiate an updated account registration page, so it follows the same theme as the main PlaneShift site? What is the main stumbling block in not being able to do so (no excuses please)? It wouldn\'t take long at all from a coding stand-point. According to \"waybackmachine.org\" archives, it hasn\'t been updated in at least a year.

Back to the main website issue... It\'s really unintuitive, a lot of things are burried so deep, they are nearly impossible to find. Some sections of text are still in Italian rather than English (old-site leftovers?). Some graphics look like they don\'t belong at all or to put it bluntly, look ugly.

For example, the latest news use a new graphic (news.jpg) as a bullet but as you go further back in the archives, the bullets are replaced by an ugly pink (which is still used in many other sections of the site), and the text is suddenly blue-green. I went all the way back in the news archives to find a very interesting \"hidden\" section about history of PlaneShift, as well as it\'s old MUD page. Something like that should really be linked in the \"About\" section somewhere. The current setup is like a mutated version of \"mystery meat nagivation\".

Also, the forum (again, managed by Andrew Craig, I believe) uses what looks like default forum colors. I found something called \"PlaneShift-test\" theme in its preferences but why it\'s not made a default theme seems to be a mystery. Again, it\'s extremely unprofessional looking. The whole thing reminds me so much of those default vBulletin colors that a lot of amateurish websites never edit, so it completely clashes with the main site. Quite honestly though, I absolutely hate the main website\'s \"theme colors\" - the dull, drab, and washed out feeling doesn\'t exactly convey \"fantasy\" very well. Too much uninteresting brown is overbearing. The yellow and greenish just makes it worse. Are these really the \"PlaneShift theme colors\"? Where are the beautiful blue and red, for example? Steel blue perhaps? Same goes for the overbearing brown+green PlaneShift GUI. Aren\'t there enough dull colors in PlaneShift already? How about something like a World of Warcraft or Guild Wars GUI instead? I really really question the color choices.

I\'m not a fan of the outdated lef-justified layout of the site either. Why not make it at least fixed-width centered, fluid, or even better - an elastic layout?

The main site\'s code doesn\'t even validate with W3C validator. It\'s clearly a non-standards compliant code, something which professional web developers and designers have been trying to battle for years. All the articles at w3c.org, all the letters to Microsoft to get their act straight at least with IE7, all the efforts by the creators of Firefox, still seem to fall on a lot of deaf ears. It\'s very clear that the site uses a Dreamweaver template. None of the WYSIWYG html editors ever put out a valid code. What they put out is something that professional web developers call a quirky code or \"html soup\". I believe Dreamweaver is attempting to improve its standards-compliant code in the latest version but it\'s still a far cry from the hand-coded correct and professional code.

It may be easy to learn a web design and development but it\'s not easy to master it.

You\'d think that Luca Pancallo would either learn a standards-compiant code or someone would contribute a better site by now but doing a search on this forum shows where the problem with that lies. I found a topic where a couple of guys wrote about sending in their XHTML 1.0 + CSS site proposals to Luca Pancallo but he turned them down and said he will not accept anything that isn\'t a \"Dreamweaver template\". Someone named \"Kiva\" stated that it\'s because Luca uses \"Dreamweaver\" (well, duh). But I think the reason he uses Dreamweaver is because he doesn\'t know how to write a standards-compliant code. He\'s paying for a basic website without a database, so there\'s no CMS (Content Management System). That is why he is dependant on Dreamweaver.

What\'s very contradicting to the other member reports though is the \"Web Designer\" section on the \"Recruitment Page\":

Please insert this information :

- Previous experiences on building web sites.
- Web languages you know (php, perl, asp, javascript, etc...)
- Web applications you use to build sites. Please tell us how many years of experience you have in those.
- Post references to sites made by you, or send a proposal to update the layout of our main page.


How can anyone send any more proposals when people have clearly reported that Luca doesn\'t want an XHTML 1.0 Stict + CSS standards-compliant code but rather a dreaded and ugly \"Dreamweaver template\"? On the other hand, the web designer position doesn\'t even state that it\'s open, so perhaps he wants to be a web designer all by himself.

Frankly, I\'m very disappointed that he supposedly expects top-notch work from other contributors but yet he insists on a horrible code and ugly and disfunctional website layout.

As a professional web developer myself (I work for a huge development company here in Canada), I can guarantee you that none of the previously posted exuses like \"c\'mon, it\'s not that hard to bookmark a this page or a forum\" will work. It DOES drive a lot of the new visitors away, it DOES make PlaneShift project very unattractive to professional developers who might\'ve otherwise applied for the team. And hiding behind the \"it\'s free\" veil excuse is really old and doesn\'t work. Crap is free too, pardon my saying.

I realize this post may sound very harsh but someone had to come out and speak out the truth for once. I\'ve been lurking around this forum quite a bit before I posted this and I notice that as soon as someone posts something negative about anything PlaneShift, they get a ton of so called \"regulars\" screaming their heads off and insulting that person.

Scream all you want but this needed to be said.

PS I don\'t care if you end up deleting this thread, if you find it too harsh. I said what I wanted to say and that\'s good enough for me.

steuben

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« Reply #1 on: March 14, 2006, 01:58:12 am »
yep, all been mentioned before.

but hey, if you can do better. submitt your proposal. if it flies it flies.
may laanx frighten the shadow from my path.
hardly because the shadow built the lexx.
the shadow will frighten laanx from my path.

acraig

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« Reply #2 on: March 14, 2006, 02:06:09 am »
Very easy to say what is wrong a lot harder to make it right :)

I fully agree that we need a full time web developer team to work on the 3 sites that we have.  So far nobody has stepped up to offer any concrete solutions.    

Most of our time is spent on debugging and developing the game so the website has taken a backseat a lot of the time.  

Every person that I\'ve talked to about redoing the website has never returned back with anything.   Design a website is a very big job and one that we don\'t have the man-power to support very well at the moment.   I am not a web developer but I have the required skill set to do it.   But I simply don\'t have the time to dedicate to the website.  I feel that any job would be half done as is apparent now.  

You raise very good points but as steuben mentioned it\'s all been mentioned before.   Until we can get a dedicated team that is willing to put in the work involved we will have to struggle with an inconsistant system.
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Karyuu

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« Reply #3 on: March 14, 2006, 02:06:33 am »
This thread makes me want to stop whatever I\'m doing and redesign the site myself :P Except I can\'t stop what I\'m doing.

But you look like you have some time... :)

Seriously though, everything you wrote makes sense - there\'s just a matter of finding someone willing to do this. No one on the PS team at the moment has any time to devote to the website besides basic updating, and I don\'t remember the last time (years?) when someone had a proposal to submit. We\'re just very very short on free hands to grab \"side-projects\". That doesn\'t mean that we are ignoring things we aren\'t currently working on.

*edit* Pfft, beating by a million people ;)
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 02:07:42 am by Karyuu »
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miadon

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« Reply #4 on: March 14, 2006, 02:14:32 am »
I would like to help, but my sites are not the most stylish in the world, I believe web design you need to be good at art aswell to make it look very nice.

http://www.supertux.info <-my site

Not the best site in the world and needs alot of updating itself :\\.
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acraig

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« Reply #5 on: March 14, 2006, 02:28:19 am »
I think just to start with would be a simple layout.  Like what sort of head/footer, table format, where to place menu items, etc. Colour schemes as well would be nice.
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Vengeance

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« Reply #6 on: March 14, 2006, 02:49:28 am »
My informal motto for the team development process is \"Imperfect and done is a lot better than perfect and not done.\"  Your 2000 words of criticism notwithstanding, the reason the website isn\'t better is because no one on the team gives a crap about it.  We are making an MMORPG, not a website.

It is arguable no one even cares enough to supervise someone else doing the work on it. :-)

I would ask you to try your hand and volunteer a fixed version, but a) I know you won\'t, and b) we probably wouldn\'t use it.

Sincerely,
- Venge

p.s. The web designer position on the site is to help develop web applications internal to the team, for server administration, etc.  As usual, the public website statement there was an afterthought...

DaveG

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« Reply #7 on: March 14, 2006, 03:11:51 am »
We get plenty of blunt (mildly insulting) rants posted here from time to time, however this one is quite valid.  We just need someone to do it.  Feel free to step up to the plate.  ;)

If you can actually fix these problems, and design us a good website, please do.  Talk to Luca (Talad on IRC) and give him some samples and ideas.  If you\'re willing to actually work on this (not bail, as has been mentioned is the pattern) and work with the rest of the team, I\'m sure you will be welcome.  We\'re just very skeptical on the issue.  (no offense...)

::  PlaneShift Team Programmer  ::

Mentak

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« Reply #8 on: March 14, 2006, 03:14:33 am »
Uhhh, I guess I could help. It\'s not really the layout. Its just that there is not enough information/content.

http://coldplayamerica.com <-- This is mine
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 04:08:01 am by Mentak »

mikewsnc

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« Reply #9 on: March 14, 2006, 04:48:54 am »
I just cant beleave this was his first post. A rip of the website. WOW is all I can say.


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dfryer

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« Reply #10 on: March 14, 2006, 06:02:43 am »
Quote
Like OH MY GOSH.  The colours are *so* wrong.  I mean, did you *see* her hair?  I just *can\'t* believe what she did to it, I mean *who* does she think she is? And that dress?  It is SO TOTALLY last week, I\'m pretty sure I saw it on sale in some sort of .. um, store thing.  


As stated before, working on Planeshift (where both \"Luca Pancallo\" and \"Andrew Craig\" spend a lot of their time) is much more about designing and implementing a game (at least at this point) than running some kind of fashion show or interior decoration debate club.  While we do take pride in our work, there are very practical considerations to take into account, one being that Talad might actually not *be* a professional full-time web developer, but for practical reasons is often the one who needs to modify webpages.  Standard-compliant code is great, but things seem to render fine in IE and Safari alike, so immediately it becomes negligible on the priority list.

Using a default forum colour-scheme is \"amateurish\"?  Guess what.. we\'re not getting paid for this!  Doesn\'t that make us amateurs?
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Mentak

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« Reply #11 on: March 14, 2006, 06:57:47 am »
Good point. Now, lets give a round of applause to the team.

Mentak claps

Oh come on, I can agree with the forum moderators (after talking to them in the IRC), and reading the post, If YOU have a problem with the page, then join the team and make it better. They can use help. Well, I can agree that there isn\'t much user friendly content (as Netty stated) the website isn\'t everything you know. What are they trying to promote, the site or the game? (good point arcraig and DaveG). Now, next week on nightline, we discuss the topic of Enki spawn... :3
« Last Edit: March 14, 2006, 06:59:01 am by Mentak »

Goldir

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« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2006, 07:04:37 am »
I\'m probably talking out my sphincter here, but here goes:  You made a lot of criticism.  According to the people that just commented it was mostly valid.  Now my mommy (and my drill sergeant) both told me not to criticize unless I had a solution or was willing to do something about it.  If every key you typed to write that criticism was instead used to polish up the code and make a new site (or to improve the old one), there would be no problem with the site because you would have just solved it.  Feel free to tear me to pieces people.  The pain lets me know I\'m alive.
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AryHann

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« Reply #13 on: March 14, 2006, 08:18:37 am »
I think your post is rather valid and you raise some really good point.
It seems you are into the subject, why don\'t you try to make a conceptual draft proposal to be shown to the devs?

I think the most important thing is actually put words in an empirical result and if you have the skills, the time and the will, it would be really nice to have an usable, beautiful, updated website that is even easy to be maintained.
AryHann

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Uyaem

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« Reply #14 on: March 14, 2006, 09:22:42 am »
Thorough analysis, however I disagree on some points.

- Color/theme are something you do not see on every other page. Five out of six pages on the net use various blue colours, which is really getting old.

- W3C compatibility is wishful thinking unless you have a plain text site. It\'s not that you cannot achieve compatibility, it\'s more that browsers cannot. To stay cross-browser compatible, in my experience you have to tweak and hack.


On the other hand, to all the voices that say \"submit a draft\" - who likes to spend time on something that is likely to get turned down anyway? You can\'t blame Netty for not submitting a draft with this quite extensive analysis.
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