This video changed my life

[Verrliit]

Originally posted by zanzibar
Oh please.  This is not anti-U.S.  There\'s nothing anti U.S. about it.  It\'s entirely possible to love a country but hate its government.

*Verrliit marvels with wonderment, at the unlikely event...*

My goodness, Shal.

We have found common ground, and common sense, at last.

To those sheeple, who are still complacently trusting of those who hold power, I say the following:

1. Use Occam\'s razor - \"The simplest explanation that fits all the facts, is the most likely.\"

2. People in power have no limit to the evil of which they are capable. (Google Auschwitz, Hiroshima, Aids, expired medicines sold to poor African countries, military experiments on soldiers without consent, Orgone and the Radium Dial Corporation, treatment of the control group in Syphillus research, etc, etc...)

3. GW was once asked: \"What will be your legacy, and be written about you in the history books?\"

GW replied: \"History doesn\'t matter.  We\'ll all be dead.\"

[Araye]

I have seen the video.  I think they raise some interesting points that should be looked into more closely...  BUT...

Look at the level of conspiracy it would take to pull this off.  Honestly.  Think it through.  Look at the organization it would take, the prior planning, and the manpower.

No one talked?  Everyone just went along with it?

Do you really believe there are these super secret agencies that are so good at contorting world events that they rarely get caught?  Wouldn\'t they have left fewer \"clues\" if they were so good?

People think, Bush can barely complete a proper sentence.  Do you really believe he is \"Dr. Evil?\"  Oh is it Cheney?  Wait...  I know, there are bigger, smarter, puppet masters right?

Do you guys realize who works for the government?  That\'s right, people just like you and me.  People that do the job to get paid so they can afford a house and drink a beer with the game.  

Don\'t you think laziness on their part, governmental red tape, and an arrogant \"it can never happen to us\" attitude could have let this happen?

Not to mention an \"enemy\" that really does want to kill American\'s and their \"commitment\" to see it through?

Is it really so far fetched?

Now, don\'t get me wrong.  I don\'t for one minute believe I\'m being told the whole truth by these people.  I do believe there is a lot of \"cover your ass\" going on.  I\'m sure there is a lot more to the story.  But you really have to think it through before just buying anything that \"proves\" these major conspiracy theories.

It\'s just like the \"computer is developed from alien technology\" people.  I work in this industry and hold many patents to developing microprocessor technology.  I suppose I\'ve had access to \"alien technology\" that I\'ve copied to create microprocessors?  I guess I\'m not clever enough to come up with an invention on my own right?

Think about the information presented, who is presenting it, and their motives before drawing conclusions.  Also check both sides of the story.  Use some common sense.

Araye

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by Araye
I have seen the video.  I think they raise some interesting points that should be looked into more closely...  BUT...

Look at the level of conspiracy it would take to pull this off.  Honestly.  Think it through.  Look at the organization it would take, the prior planning, and the manpower.

No one talked?  Everyone just went along with it?

Do you really believe there are these super secret agencies that are so good at contorting world events that they rarely get caught?

They\'re called the CIA.

[derwoodly]

Nice chop job you did on my post Zanzibar.  When you pick apart each sentance you can find all sorts of problems with my post.  The same is true for just about anything.  My oppinion is really no different than Araye\'s opinion.  I also notice your comment about the CIA does not address his main point about what is more likely to have happened.

And to Verrliit, both Araye and my self are discussing the complexity of the events that would have to have gone on in order to cover up such a conspiricy.  Wich in my estimation is using Occam\'s razor.   Having a hand full of fanatics fly a plane into the WTO a few years after they drove a van full of explosives into it is a much simpler explanation than the one provided on the web site at the begining of this post. Is that not the principle of Occam\'s razor?  

In truth, I believe that neither Zanzibar or Efflixi really believe in the nonsense that they posted, I think they are just bored.  Don\'t believe me? here is a quote from the site that Zanzibar provided at the begining of the post ...

 \"What do you call someone who explodes a bomb and kills innocent people?
? A terrorist.
What do you call someone who drops a bomb from a plane and kills innocent people?
? A brave American pilot. \"

[Quote from DoubleStandard.Org ]

Yes, Zanzibar, I have built some Strawmen, I do it quite often in my arguements.  If this were a term paper I would do a better job of representing my oponnets arguements, include quotes, site sources, and  would also run this mess through the spell checker.  However the original post is right here in the thread, everyone can see Efflixii\'s arguement and his source and your source as well, and judge for themselves as to the quallity of the my job of representing the other side. I encourage everyone to look at double standard dot org and decide for them selves.  I found it to be a fantastic source of logical fallacies.

[Kixie]

Derwoodly, I just wouldn\'t worry about it anymore. This thread has gone down the crapper, and I\'ve just decided to let by gones be by gones. Hopefully this thread shall rest in peace, forevermore.  

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by derwoodly
I believe that neither Zanzibar or Efflixi really believe in the nonsense that they posted

You\'re wrong.

Originally posted by derwoodly
Yes, Zanzibar, I have built some Strawmen, I do it quite often in my arguements.  If this were a term paper I would do a better job of representing my oponnets arguements, include quotes, site sources, and  would also run this mess through the spell checker.

A strawman argument means that you invent or fabricate a ficticious argument and then you pretend that your oponent\'s argument is actually the one you just made up.  You then attack the argument you made up, and you ignore the argument that your oponent actually said.

[defender43]

What the heck? We were never friendly towards Hitler! That second link says we were, it lies! If it lies once, how can we trust its integrity on the other things?

*edit*
Derwoodly, it\'s one thing if it\'s meant to incapacitate a military, it\'s a whole other matter if it\'s to incapacitate a country. And America in both world wars waited to be attacked before entering the conflict. We were fighting for our lives and freedoms, and the lives and freedoms of others. How can our nation\'s defenders be compared to random idiots commiting suicide and mass homicide at the same time?

The difference:
American pilot: Fighting for people, against those who wish to kill/conquer/enslave them.
Terrorist: Fighting for no one, against civilians who did nothing against them.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by defender43
What the heck? We were never friendly towards Hitler! That second link says we were, it lies! If it lies once, how can we trust its integrity on the other things?

*edit*
Derwoodly, it\'s one thing if it\'s meant to incapacitate a military, it\'s a whole other matter if it\'s to incapacitate a country. And America in both world wars waited to be attacked before entering the conflict. We were fighting for our lives and freedoms, and the lives and freedoms of others. How can our nation\'s defenders be compared to random idiots commiting suicide and mass homicide at the same time?

The difference:
American pilot: Fighting for people, against those who wish to kill/conquer/enslave them.
Terrorist: Fighting for no one, against civilians who did nothing against them.

1.  America did not fund the Nazis.  The Bush family did.

2.  American soldiers are usually fighting for college money, not their country.

3.  Suicidal bombers are fighting for their families, for their homeland, and for their God.

4.  Suicide bombers feel that the people they kill are corrupted by Satan.

[defender43]

1: Again, WTF? I have done extensive research on the matter.

2: Did I hear a usually in there? Anyways, I wouldn\'t go out and get myself killed just for college money. It doesn\'t make sense, once you\'re dead, you don\'t need collage money. I would do it for America, my family, and my friends.

3: We did not attack them at the time of Sepember 11th. They attacked us without any form of provokation.

4: So? It\'s called \'freedom of religion\'. I  feel that they  are corrupted by Satan. But I am not just going over there with a bomb strapped to my chest!

[Frank]

oh here to the creibitly of the movie


http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/single.php?post=816414



his quotes were cherry picked and my favorite

ere have been some people who claim that a Global Hawk was what hit the Pentagon. Here is what John W. Brown, spokesman for Rolls Royce (Indianapolis), had to say about the part in the photo above �It is not a part from any Rolls Royce engine that I�m familiar with, and certainly not the AE 3007H made here in Indy.� (Of course it wouldn\'t be anything he\'s familiar with, it\'s a powerplant made by Honeywell.) The AE 3007 engines are used in small commuter jets such as the Cessna Citation; the AE 3007H is also used in the military�s unmanned aircraft, the Global Hawk. The Global Hawk is manufactured by Northrop Grumman�s subsidiary Ryan Aeronautical, which it acquired from Teledyne, Inc. in July 1999

[Zaxim]

Originally posted by zanzibar


3.  Suicidal bombers are fighting for their families, for their homeland, and for their God.

4.  Suicide bombers feel that the people they kill are corrupted by Satan.

You seem to know a lot about what suicide bombers think.  You failed to mention political power as additional motivation.  Not every suicide bomber has \"high\" ideals such as religion and homeland.


And defender, what the hell do you mean we didn\'t attack them during 9/11? Attack who? The terrorists? Who are the terrorists?  

I fail to see how you think we didn\'t provoke them.  The reasons might not be \"right\" but we\'re not completely blameless.

[zanzibar]

Originally posted by defender43
1: Again, WTF? I have done extensive research on the matter.

Others have done extensive research as well, and they seem to disagree with you.

Originally posted by defender43
2: Did I hear a usually in there? Anyways, I wouldn\'t go out and get myself killed just for college money. It doesn\'t make sense, once you\'re dead, you don\'t need collage money. I would do it for America, my family, and my friends.

The members of the national guard never expected to see active duty except for domestic disaster relief.  They never expected to go to Iraq, and they never expected their tour of duty to be extended by months and years.

Originally posted by defender43
3: We did not attack them at the time of Sepember 11th. They attacked us without any form of provokation.

Actually, we did attack them.  The American government has interfered with the politics and economies of many countries, including those in the middle east.  The American government has started wars, has funded terrorist organizations, and has assassinated democratically elected leaders.

Originally posted by defender43
4: So? It\'s called \'freedom of religion\'. I  feel that they  are corrupted by Satan. But I am not just going over there with a bomb strapped to my chest!

You said that they\'re mudering innocent people for no reason.  [They don\'t think we\'re innocent, and they don\'t think it\'s without reason.

Originally posted by Zaxim
You seem to know a lot about what suicide bombers think.  You failed to mention political power as additional motivation.  Not every suicide bomber has \"high\" ideals such as religion and homeland.

The people who train and send the suicide bombers may be doing so for political gain, but the suicide bombers themselves are drugged up and told they\'re going to meet 40 virgins in heaven.

[ylikone]

Originally posted by Frank
oh here to the creibitly of the movie

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/single.php?post=816414

See, some simple research as in the link posted by Frank shows how it is obvious that a plane crashed into the pentagon.  All the conspiracy documentaties make it look so questionable... until you step back and look at all the evidence they left out, then you start seeing a completely different picture.  Really, most of these things like \"plane never hit\", \"planes landed and people hidden away\", \"towers were imploded by internal bombs\", etc... are just conspiracy theories that look believable until unbias research is done... and they end up being on the same level as \"we didn\'t actually land on the moon\" and \"the earth is hollow\", etc...

[Kixie]

I told myself I would not post another sentence into this thread, but I cannot let Zanzibar spout this nonsense.

I have to question all those conspiracy theorists in this thread, who are posting and ask, how are you helping? If you honestly believe that the world is being controlled, and that an unjust power is in place, what are you doing by posting here? I really marvel at how you can be so calm as to state your opinions when obviously there is a state of mortal peril at hand! I know if I saw the truth in something as truly dispicable as global domination, I would not watch it take it course like a fool.

Zanzibar, your motives are truly questionable. You say that the government is a fool at times, yet at others you ramble that the head of state has taken far precautions to guarantee a staged plan of global proportions. How does that add up?

Even more offending is your condesending views of those who defend their land in the Middle East. While their paths are obviously confused, it is a path I would not doubt any of us would take if we were in the same circumstance. The fact you can judge men you have never spoken to, never even graced with your own presence is a stunning example of egotistical ignorance. These men give their lives for their family. How does that not strike you in anyway? You can surely deem that they are ignorant, or crazy or lied to, yet do you truly know them? There is an old saying, \"You should walk a mile in a man\'s shoes before you cast judgment\" but even that doesn\'t shed light on what these men are defending. At least THEY have a backbone; enough of one to stand for what they believe to be true, unlike you, a man who stands while believing at the same time there is a world wide danger. In my opinion, the men who kill themselves with bombs have more of my respect than you.

Your depection of men who travel overseas from the United States also offends me more than words can describe. Sure, their lives are just as pompous and comfortable as the ones you and I live, but their valiancy is still greater than yours; and I admit it is a bravery I am not sure I possess myself. But, unlike you my admiration still goes towards men who take it upon themselves to travel to a foreign land to fight for something they hold dear to them. This treasure they wish to posess is not something as trivial as a government check. While there are men and women who are fools enough to die for something as meaningly as currency, I can hardly believe that the majority or even a large group of idividuals in our country would give their lives for useless paper. They die for our country and what it stands for. That takes something you do not posess.

You are correct in your assumptions however. Men are tainted with lies. However, the lies and half truths I see do not come from a surreptitious individual in office. He wears not a smile of kindness; he is you.

I only wish that you would take the time to think about other people before you cast their judgment and opinion and selfish and unworthy. Ignorance towards another\'s actions is the most offendable and dangerous kind. I only hope one day you can take that knowlege, and put it into a cause more useful than that of a forum troll.

[zanzibar]

Ylikone, to me your post is merely a set of blanket statements without factual evidence backing them up.  I\'m sure that you have reason to believe what you believe, but until you give reason for me to agree with you...

Originally posted by Kixie
I have to question all those conspiracy theorists in this thread, who are posting and ask, how are you helping? If you honestly believe that the world is being controlled, and that an unjust power is in place, what are you doing by posting here?

It might be pointless to say something, but the thing being said might still be true.

Originally posted by Kixie
Zanzibar, your motives are truly questionable. You say that the government is a fool at times, yet at others you ramble that the head of state has taken far precautions to guarantee a staged plan of global proportions. How does that add up?

Gee wiz Kixie, it\'s almost as if the government is made up of multiple individuals and interests!

Originally posted by Kixie
Even more offending is your condesending views of those who defend their land in the Middle East.

Huh?  When was I condescending towards people in the Middle East?  Now you\'re just making crap up.  Give a single quote where I was disrespectful in such a way.  I found your later comments about me to be very insulting and very untrue.  Is this what you\'re resorting to?  You can\'t defend your position, so you make up such horrible lies about what I believe?

The best part of your post was when you called me a troll.  I enjoyed that, given your history on these forums.  You reappear every so often just to cause trouble and insult people.  That\'s pretty much the definition of a troll, and I\'ve said so several times before now.  Making up lies to label me as a troll will not erase your own history.