The Planeshift Trademark

[kinshadow]

I have question about the Plainshift name.  I know that Plainshift is an international \"entity\", but how does this effect the copyright and trademarking issues?  The name Planeshift is Tradmarked in the US by Wizards of the Coast (owners of DND and Magic the Gathering).  This is not a software package granted (more of a book and card series), but they are both fantasy oriented and legal troubles may arise latter if the game actually gets big.  It would not be very hard for them to cite confusing terms and start grabbing fan domains, etc.

[Vengeance]

These issues are really negligible...

a) Trademarks are space and locale specific.  Cards and MMORPGs are not the same and not confusing to potential customers of either.  At least if I was going to legally trademark the name Planeshift, I would hire a lawyer who agreed with that.  ;-)

b) Who would Wizards of the Coast even write to?  We have no legal entity and the dev team is located in like 12 different countries around the world.  What would the threat in their demand letter be?

There are lots of things to worry about...  getting sued by Magic the Gathering is not one of them.

- Venge

[kinshadow]

Originally posted by Vengeance
a) Trademarks are space and locale specific.  Cards and MMORPGs are not the same and not confusing to potential customers of either.  At least if I was going to legally trademark the name Planeshift, I would hire a lawyer who agreed with that.  ;-)

That is assuming WOTC nevers wants to put together a computer/MMOG game based on their Planeshift fiction.  If they do (or already have) put together a game, then they could argue the point with their teams of flesh eating layers.

Originally posted by Vengeance
b) Who would Wizards of the Coast even write to?  We have no legal entity and the dev team is located in like 12 different countries around the world.  What would the threat in their demand letter be?

Well, they would want everyone else to stop using the Planeshift name and they would probably first write to Luca.  They would demand that all references to the name \"Planshift\" be removed and domains be transfered to them, esentially destoying the project\'s web-presence for a time.  If he didn\'t respond or no one acted, then they would start writing the domain owners, isp\'s, etc to remove the web presence.  The dev teams names are on the web and it would not be hard to sue everyone that didn\'t stop using the Planeshift name (at least in the US).  Stranger things have happened.

On the same note, if they sued the dev team, authors, and everyone else involved, who would pay the layers bills and travel costs?  Everyone would cave and change the name anyway, probably without a fight, and all \"Planshift\" art would have to be cleaned of the offensive trademark.

Originally posted by Vengeance
There are lots of things to worry about...  getting sued by Magic the Gathering is not one of them.

You are 100% right.  This is a non-issue that I brought up as a hypothetical.  I guess I just really wanted to hear what other people thought of the subject.  I keep hearing of other OSS projects changing their names and getting sued all the time.

It is also beneficial to think of these things in advance.  If WOTC (or someone other demonic corporation) starts throwing FUD letters around, it would be nice to have a pre-typed message to throw back at their layers.  Anyone know someone who speaks \"legalese\"?

[Vengeance]

Well, they would want everyone else to stop using the Planeshift name and they would probably first write to Luca. They would demand that all references to the name \"Planshift\" be removed and domains be transfered to them, esentially destoying the project\'s web-presence for a time. If he didn\'t respond or no one acted, then they would start writing the domain owners, isp\'s, etc to remove the web presence. The dev teams names are on the web and it would not be hard to sue everyone that didn\'t stop using the Planeshift name (at least in the US).

Well I am one of only a couple of developers who are in America.  We have 20 or so devs in probably 15 countries, most of whose real names are not public, let alone addresses or contact info.  It would take someone some serious effort (and legal fees) just to send everyone letters, let alone file cases in 15 different countries against anonymous people.

I\'m not saying this to say that we are bulletproof--there is no such thing.  I am only saying that lawsuits are filed for reasons and the cost/benefit of each one is carefully weighed before it is done.  Trust me...I\'ve sued people and I\'ve been sued.  I know how it works.

- V

[Pestilence]

hmmm true to some extent. You must have heard of Microsofts tactic of sueing potential competators and making sure those companies simply go bankrupt by making sure the legal fees go up and there is no income because those companies can't sell their product by courtorder and then buy the bankrupted companies rights for almost nothing.

Also I think that if they somehow get a devs IP that a big company with lawyers and a courtorder wont find it that hard to get your info from your provider. Specially in the US but also in other countries the police is allowed more and more. Useally with terrorist attack prevention as argument but almost never used for that

Not that I see it happening unless a onlinegame is created by WotC, but making sure you have proof of when the project started and such so it wouldn't come to court might not be a bad idea.

[Karyuu]

Thread revival..? Hm :}

I was hoping people would do more searching when I gave out this link. For example, there is also this:

Prior use always takes precedence over registration.

Windows isn\'t a valid trademark either. There was a major lawsuit just resolved recently over the clone product called \"Lindows\" and the court ruled against Microsoft saying they shouldn\'t have used a standard english word if they wanted to protect it.

- Venge

Hi,
the PlaneShift Team is not made by inexperienced people and we always take into serious account the legal part of our project. This means that we already discussed and resolved long time ago that kind of problems and several others.

The name PlaneShift is currently used by more than one company and more than one product, including us. With the difference that we have used it long way before the others. In most countries the commercial usage of a name is what matter most and so we have to move from 1992 (when I\'ve placed some web pages about PlaneShift 2D on the web) to 1996, when I\'ve partecipated to a roadshow of the 2d version of PlaneShift for it\'s commercial usage. The roadshow was part of a big convention and we have all the documentation needed to prove that.

So we have a solid base to use that name. The only usage done before that date (1996) is an AD&D spell named Plane Shift (Player\'s Handbook, 5th level priests), but in that case \"Plane\" and \"Shift\" are really two separate english words and not a single name. Also a spell doesn\'t represent a branding of any sort.

Hope this clears up the issue.

[Peacer]

planeshift is from the year 2000 i think and this book is from 2001

[r.guppy]

  yes 2000.  but follow this link definitely says TM at end of planeshift.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0786918020/ref=sib_dp_pt/104-4618154-3015962#reader-link

[Karyuu]

planeshift is from the year 2000 i think and this book is from 2001

Are you referring to our PlaneShift being from 2000..? :x

[reisio]

Think he was just reiterating that the Magic game is more recent and our use predates it.

So, probably nothing will ever happen because this PlaneShift doesn't take money from anyone and if they were silly enough to sue us, they risk losing their right to use it, as our Italians clearly used it first.

[Pestilence]

*mumbles about people never being happy while gazing at Karyuu. Then looks all innocent as Karyuu looks his way*

 

Well glad to read Karyuu's quote of Talad. 1992/1996 sounds like plenty enough time before the 2001 release of Magic: the Gathering for it not to be registered as their trademark already at that time. 2000 would be cutting it close seeing they sometimes register such names pretty long before releasing the product to make sure noone steals the name while they are developing

Aahh well pretty big a stretch to expect a lawsuit anyways I guess, but better safe then sorry.

[Suno_Regin]

So shouldn't WE have sued magic the gathering?

[vialick]

So shouldn't WE have sued magic the gathering?

chances are if it were tried, wizzards of the coast would win

there are a fair few cases where people have lost a name they rightfully have claim to (by predating the other) because the other one is more known.


That and they have the money for a lawsuit...and a lot of it

[Araye]

IIRC, patents have "prior art" and trade marks do not.  Again, IIRC, if you don't try to keep your trade mark active, ie sue the infringers, then the infringer can turn around and sue you even if you had it first.  Also if you never put a little "tm" next to PlaneShift, then they can say you never intended it to be a trade mark.  My suggestion would be to put the tm on there from now on, but then again IANAL.  From what I've read of this thread, we (PlaneShift the game) are the infringers now as "we" never enforced our claim.  Also this is all from a US point of view, local laws may be different.  This is why LINUX lost it's trade mark claim in Australia, but retains it in the US and a lot of other countries (again IIRC).

[sardit]

Magic is far older then 2000, i remember playing it in highschool wich is around 94. And back then it was already in fourth edition / ice age so there was magic the gathering befor 96 aswell.  There is also a computer game from that time, its designed for windows 95 based and is really a pimped up version of the card game. Its made by Aklaim and has the wotc trademarks on it aswell. That is from 1996. The term Planeswalker ( a reference to the player ) is common in it, however i can't find the term planeshift.

But honestely, there will only be a lawsuit filed if the GOAL of both products is the same. And since this a is a mmorpg and that a cardgame, that *might* turn to that angle there won't be trouble with a lawsuit.

( on a sidenote, prior use isn't an argument for this in dutch law. Over here its the guy first regestering it that holds the rights. )