desperate plead for a money wipe

[minetus]

Originally posted by Ratten
Hi.
Just want to say my opinion.
I think there is a generall problem in PS with accounts.
To much fake accounts.
I know that it can be hard to skill a character and today i lootet a silverweave but i still would give away my account for a proper working Planeshift.
So, if there will be a wipe, wipe all.
lets start from 0.
No problem for me.
With this post i want to encourage the devs to do that.

Greets

Ratten

no point in wiping till the problems are fixed, so the best to do is try to speak what you tink is wrong so it can be adjusted for better gameplay and only after things can be wiped

[Ratten]

....that it would be no prob for me.

If a wipe is made, then please a wipe that cleans up all the mess so we have a proper working PS.

This is more inportant for me than any Character and the skills and items it posseses...

thats all what i wanted to say.

no..sorry...thats not all....

PLEASE do a complete wipe!!!!!

..that was what i wanted to say...just do it....the faster it comes the better it is.....  

[Zan]

It is odd that people here see the problems our current ore prices are giving the economy, yet they still exploit a currently unbalanced feature ...

[Karyuu]

Ratten, you seem to have missed the point Minetus was making :) A wipe isn\'t going to happen until fixes are made, and to make fixes we have to first know all the problems and then find solutions for them, which is the bulk of the work. Telling us to wipe faster isn\'t going to help much ;)

Zan, it\'s not really an exploit, since it\'s available as a \"default\" for everyone. Moreover this is still a test, and I think pushing it to its limit and  fracture everything (like the economy) will be a fascinating thing :D We so rarely get to just freely mess around and \"break the system\", so to speak, that seeing how far this all can go will be fun.

[Nyramael]

Hi,

disclaimer: this thread has gone off topic from the first post/thread starter, but i\'d like to rant and add to the exisiting topics that have been brought up

Firstly what is a rogue doing running around with the best weapon in the land in his backpack. o.O. Wouldn\'t these weapons be made by the best/legendary swordmakers and already in the hands of legendary swordsmens who wouldn\'t let random knock-over rogues run off with them? More realistically i would like to see these weapons only availble to the expert swordsmakers with a skill requirement to weild them effectively. Also there should be a large chance that a swordsmaker create a \'silver short sword\' or mangled chunk of metal instead of the desired \'silverweave short sword\' - or whatever applies. perhaps 95 to 5?

about wipes. I understand that some people want to use planeshift as a finished product. It isn\'t. Not by a long way. If you\'ve had the chance to setup a high level character, enjoy it while it lasts. Each wipe is a good thing. Basically it is very hard to create a society/world that works. Economy, jobs, etc. Especially if we know very little about what it is based on. As well as that, i don\'t think players would want to fill some of the roles that a proper medieval society had, so how does that hole get filled? Basically the devs do something, if it doesn\'t work, they wipe, change and look at it again. Eventually, they\'ll know enough about what doesn\'t work to make a very nice game - one i\'m looking forward to.

And characters who make lots of money possibly though bugs like the molten platinum one can be a RP blessing in disguise. It\'s thanks to rich players that things like the \'Yliakum job agnecy\' and \'Proglin\'s Entertainment\' exist. I\'m planning on maybe  having a treasure hunt or something with my excess tria. I could plan something big and fun a few weeks before a wipe if i got a tip off ...

As Verrliit puts it:
The Devs have invited us to play in their sandbox. The GMs keep us from spoiling each other\'s fun. Be respectful, and thank them often.

[/end long rag]

[Aradia]

Originally posted by Isra

the issue is slightly different....if you have been around yesterday and today you would know a piece of molten ore sells for 1600 trias , and molten platinum for 6400 trias/piece....to the NPC`s...and no NPC will pay more then 3000 for any weapon... I made 60.000 trias in just over one hour today mining gold at 0 skill in mining...I`m sure you see what problems can be generated by millions of trias pushed in the game economy like this dayly...

The only thing that shows me is that you took advantage of it too. If you\'re totally against it, then why bother mining the gold? If you just did it to experiment with the crafting system, then I apologize. However, if you didn\'t, you seem a bit hyprocritical. :-|

[Ratten]

.....and i have read the posts of this topic.

problems should be fixed before anything happens, no matter what.oki.

1 week  later there will be another problem that has to be fixed .......so why wipe the money or superweapons or anything?


I see it that way....atm there are dozens of fake accounts mining for platinum....many of this accounts exist for more than 2 or 3 hours and wont be used after this mining action ever again. Some are good miners or highly skilled in another way or maybe they are not.....so , i dont see a platinum problem here or some economical ......


maybe i dont get the point...maybe i only see it from a different point of view.

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by Ratten
1 week  later there will be another problem that has to be fixed .......so why wipe the money or superweapons or anything?

We are hoping to reach that stage where there won\'t be any \"one week later\". We\'re going to wipe when we\'re absolutely sure that we won\'t have to do it again too soon, unless things mess up in really unpredictive ways. So when we are sure that we can find a nice balance, it\'ll be done. If we feel that more issues will still be coming up over and over, we\'ll wait until those issues will be included in the rebalance and fix.

[Kelden]

I would like to express my solidarity with the opinion expressed by holmj2674.

In some ways this game is, indeed, a social experiment in which the behaviour of the players is often more fascintating than the developments of the foundation of the game.

Whether a wipe happens or not, the game is still far, far from finished as a total environment and the developments arrive at a slow and careful pace.  Also, as many have stated in this thread, the developers need to try things out to see what the response is... only later to make little adjustments and tweaks as need be.  This should be obvious to everyone.

Seeing all of the players (myself included) swarming around the furnace and casting table to experiment with the new crafting abilities is a joy to behold. (...at long, long last... and my hat is off to the devs and programmers.  Thank you!)

Also fun is seeing how the mining passion has swept the community.  Well, sure, the prices are a bit out of whack for the moment, guys, but that doesn\'t take away from the fun of it all, really, does it!?

So much heated discussion about a \'virtual\' world and (stranger still) \'virtual\' misuse of \'virtual\' profits is another \"joy to behold\".

Whether or not I agree with the arguments -  the pros and cons... and whether or not any discussions about misuse of profits, corruption of economy or whether a WIPE comes sooner or later -  well, it is all rather a tempest in a teacup to me.

But, if you allow yourselves to unbend a bit... and sit back and laugh about it all, then you will begin to enjoy the very ZEN experience of the reality that exists as a melding of the game world, the player\'s in-game behaviour and the in-forum debates which - taken all together - rather prove what a powerful and passionate experiment in imagination and social behaviour the PS world is.

With a big grin and happy wave to all...

[Xillix Queen of Fools]

can we spare the wipe till we know we are not going to do it again? Ever?

I mean at this stage alpha and all . . .  how many more times will a player face this?

when a full finished release is made will that not still be subject to the addition of new features? and if so is it not possible that new exploits will emerge?

How many wipes does one face playing this game?

[yes as many as are needed I get it]

Is there any idea when it stops?

All arguments based on the idea that reputation etc stands are somewhat true but I agree with those that believe character advancement experience fighting prowess etc are part and parcel of what the character is as a whole. You can bet your bottom dollar that after a wipe I will be working hard to get my character back to where he or she was before a wipe because a part of authority stems from demonstrated ability.

If, for example, someone I do not know comes disrespectfully challenging my character to a duel I want to be able to put them in their place.

Yes after a wipe older players will retain an edge, they know the system better, but role playing alone sometimes does not combat senseless violence. Sometimes it is fitting that a loudmouth is beat down. Sometimes when they are they learn a new respect and think differently about role playing and what it means. Violence alone is not the limit of what i refer to. you can roleplay the greatest sword crafter in Yliakum for months or years then be wiped and have a new player out shine you in a week because you could not devote as much time to getting back to where you were.

I am sure My character will remain Xillix Queen of Fools through several iterations of the game but I do feel having something tangible to back up that reputation is essential
to game balance. I role play a great deal more than train now but I worked very hard to have a solid skill base to justify my role.  

I would prefer for this not to be categorized as a \"player whine\"

I will roll with the punches as wipes are concerned, but I do not want to see a wipe-happy dev team. [I am not saying that I see one now this is more directed at the players]

Just as I do not think whining about a wipe can accomplish much I do not believe encouraging one does much either.

we bear, the economy bears, I want persistence to the persistent world.

[note want eventually, not demmand immediately]

One last note:

How much would you pay for a Holy Avenger if it were real? How much is Excalibur worth? Sightblinder? Thor\'s Hammer? The One Ring?

This is somewhat extreme as items of this nature do not yet exist.

So more to the point,

how much relative to the average income of a peasant would a fine weapon of Damascan steel be worth? Or in ancient Japan, the finest of samurai swords? How much would they cost relative to a peasants wages?

Damn str8 A LOT

[Sisilam_Takero]

I agree with Syilph and others .. crying for a wipe won\'t solve the problem that some people use unbalanced behaviours or bugs to get money.

But this game is not only related to trias!!!!

You may have millions of trias .. that won\'t help you much on increasing any stat without the propper amount of progres points.

Don\'t get me wrong .. I\'m anyway not happy about the unballanced system sometimes but I will not cry for a wipe. Because it took me a long hard run to build up my player, do all that quests, get all those glyphs, skill up magic ways etc. which is sad to do taht all again. and there are other points more related as just being able to buy better swords as well as a real role player is happy if he can kill an Ulbernaut by his own instead of being a Ulberheart of someone else.

Anyhow I took some time to look at the real market price of gold 600$/ounze and platinum 1100$/ounze.

So addapting that to PS ($ != trias) we maybe use 60 trias for 1 gold ore and 100 trias for one platinum ore. I think that is a fair price (instead of 8 trias)

So I got the following changes:

.. anyone with DB server acces might do ..

SELECT stat_type, name, weight, base_sale_price, item_type FROM item_stats WHERE name LIKE \'%ore%\' OR name LIKE \'%bare%\' OR name LIKE \'%ingot%\';

to get all the related lines .. and change them alike

UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'10.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Iron Ore\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'15.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Coper Ore\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'20.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Silver Ore\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'60.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Gold Ore\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'100.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Platinum Ore\';

so simple melting of 8 ores (short), 10 ores and 12 ores (long) will rise the price of around 10% wich is nice but not as extreme than it is now and still fair because you don\'t need any skill to melt them.

UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'88.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Short Iron Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'132.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Short Coper Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'176.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Short Silver Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'528.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Short Gold Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'880.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Short Platinum Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'110.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Iron Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'165.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Coper Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'220.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Silver Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'660.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Gold Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'1100.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Platinum Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'132.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Long Iron Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'198.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Long Coper Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'264.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Long Silver Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'792.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Long Gold Bar\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'1320.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Long Platinum Bar\';

then 10 crafted ores melted and hammered will give a wrought ingot with price rise of around 40%

UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'154.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Wrought Iron Ingot\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'231.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Wrought Coper Ingot\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'308.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Wrought Silver Ingot\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'924.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Wrought Gold Ingot\';
UPDATE item_stats SET base_sale_price=\'1540.0\' WHERE stat_type=\'B\' AND name=\'Wrought Platinum Ingot\';

so a \'Iron Ingot\' is still less worth than a good sword (200 trias) as well as a single ore like platinum is not as high as a crafted item like a sword, but all items are worth enough to dig them ..

I know that balancing is something which is ment to be done anytime later in game .. but to pull those lines on the MySQL server will only takes a couple of minutes and might stop some people crying around

[Karyuu]

Originally posted by Xillix Queen of Fools
can we spare the wipe till we know we are not going to do it again? Ever?

I\'m afraid \"not ever again\" just isn\'t an option considering our version of release, and how many features we are still lacking. Fighting/mining/crafting are now the big things, but these are just 2-3 activities you can really use skills for, out of everything we have planned. And lots is planned :)

I mean at this stage alpha and all . . .  how many more times will a player face this?

It\'s not something anyone has an answer for, the dev team included. We can\'t predict whether we will get a certain balance right the first time when something is introduced, or if it will require several adjustments before the majority of the community and the team is satisfied. No one likes losing what they have worked hard to earn - and as stated, wipes won\'t happen until absolutely necessary. Meaning we will wait as long as we can, but they will happen. It\'s just inevitable. Wipes happen all the time in closed development with small groups of testers - the only difference with PlaneShift is that there are more people who think they are entitled to keep everything they earn, regardless of development.

[Gentar]

You know what they say Waylander, Assuming makes an Ass of U and Me. So dont put words into the devs mouths based on your misguided ideas.

[neko kyouran]

Going off of Miss K\'s last post.  This may be a tad bit off topic but I think it fits in well enough fo rthe current tpoic of this thread.

I\'m not sure how many of you have tested, either alpha, beta, whetever before, and I can assume a many of the players of PS have not been involved in the testing of games before so I\'ll add a littel thing that was a weekly project for the last game I beta tested, Auto Assult.  (Online MMORPG blah blah with vehicles, curreltly released out as a completed project I think.) Anyway, one a week, it was \"see how many times you can crash the server week.  Driving a vehile off a cliff into a zone that wasn\'t supposed to have any vehicles in it was always fun.  This was then reported to the devs and they said good job, don\'t do it again.  Other times it was stress test of players, the devs would say everyone go make as many new characters of this certain type of model, etc, to see what the server would do.  Needless to say, there were many wipes done before, while, and after all this testing was done to simplay clear out all that studd in the DB.  Plus, for a closed project anyway, just before they hi final release, there is always a wipe so that when it goes public, eveyone starts out even, sorta.  I normally only like to test and then move onto the next project, but some games I buy and try out for a bit after they go public.

Anyways, wipes are a neccesity of the testing process. They happen when they need to happen.  Excuse my bad typing skills, currently been up for 24 hours so, I need a bit of sleep.  Thanky.

[DaveG]

It always amazes me how these threads can wind off like this...  :rolleyes:

Wipes are something you sign on for when you play on a test server.  There are bugs that are the side-effects of other bugs that are lying around due to keeping old corrupted data.  It needs to go, and as soon as we fix the other issues we have currently, it\'ll get wiped.  If we ever get another pile of messed up stuff, we\'ll wipe again, and you\'ll just have to deal with it.

When it comes to the age old whine, simply put, if wiping everything a couple times a year completely ruins the game for you then don\'t play.  Just loosing your stats and crap shouldn\'t kill all in-game activity.  Either accept it or don\'t; I don\'t care.  Either way, wipes will happen.

My best advice, is to just go with the flow.  If things get wiped, thrilling... just keep playing.  It\'s not like we\'re just wiping your character.  You aren\'t lowered below anyone, so just continue on and it shouldn\'t be too drastic of a problem.  If, however, you\'re playing to get some obscure points on some test server, then yeah, I guess your life is over.