A radical change to all forms of combat.

[Kerol]

If someone has no player skill and only has time for RP not training, unfortunately no combat system can cater for them. The only way they can have a chance is to RP the fight, and it's pretty disfunctional without pre-agreement on who will win.

Strongly disagreed.
If you RP a fight by following this guide I wrote some time ago, you will see that the outcome is even more uncertain in an RP fight than in a PvP duel as it is possible to have both opponents giving up by exhaustion or both getting killed or one gets defeated, but not killed, etc.
There are a lot more possibilities how an RP fight can develop than a PvP fight nowadays; and NONE of the RP fights I have participated in have ever been predetermined by the players.

RP fights are one of the most difficult things to RP. But if done right, they provide so much more excitement and lengthier fights than PvP duels nowadays, as I proved
in a pure RP tournament in january this year.

I hope to see a PvP system that provides just as much depth and possible outcomes than an RP fight one day, but I don't think that will happen sooner than soon(tm).

Back on topic:
What do you think about my approach to have collision detection enabled, but without push/pull?

Btw, I just recalled something on the subject "automatic fights":
In "Das Schwarze Auge" (a german RPG), it was possible to switch to a fully automatic fight if you are too stupid/busy/tired to do the fight yourself.
It meant that the comp was calculating the fight turn by turn (the fighting system was turn based) for each opponent. You was able to take over any time or brake the fight by fleeing. I can imagine a similar system in PS, too. It would only require a lot better AI.
If you are not capable (either by lag, by weak computer ressources or whatever) not to fight a PvP fight, you could switch to automatic fight, letting the AI taking over.
You could watch in realtime what the AI is doing with your char, the stats and so on, while the other player could still fight manually and ideally wouldn't even notice that he is fighting against the computer.
One could set a lower limit before yielding/fleeing when the AI gives up and runs away, once the limit is reached.
It's also imaginable to set a fighting script, what the AI shall prefer and in what order and when. For instance "while distance > 10m to opponent use magic long range; while distance < 10m to opponent attack 1 with melee; if HP < 10% then yield"
If you think you can turn the tide, you always could take over the controlls, even in the fight.
I think thats the most convenient solution to the auto-fight or not - discussion.

Opinions?

[zanzibar]

I was inspired to bump this thread after witnessing people fighting in the death realm as well as near Harnquist's shop.  Also, I see that Kerol never recieved a response to his idea.  I do think that automating combat in such a way has advantages.



Did my suggestion ever get a definitive reaction?  I really really really think that this one is a keeper.  Just to recap:  If you are in a duel, or in any form of combat, make it so that you will automatically switch to a full defensive stance if you run.  Just think of how much more in-character duels and combat will be if this was put into effect.  The way things are now, duels are basically an arcade game which are heavily dependant on lag.  The mechanics of the game - and the flavour of the game - are all but completely bipassed.

[John80sk]

I like the idea, but think I'd do it slightly differently.  This is something I've been thinking about quite a bit lately, as to me the dueling in PS is, although basically a mistake, really fun.  So after a bit of thinking, this is how I'd prefer it turn out in the end:

1) Change the way weapon range works, make it a circular area that is positioned slightly infront of the character.  Basically your range would be extremely short from behind, and longer in front of you.

2) Start the timer for the attack when the character is both in range, not when they click to change stance

3) Once a character is in a stance they're in a stance, and being out of range does not cancel the stance, but instead the timer is just on hold

4) Increase rotation speed and strafing speed while significantly reducing the speed a player moves when running backwards

5) Cut the *four lines of expletives* damage values to around a quarter of their current values or increase player hp by 4x.  Yes I know,
    beta, but please, for the sake of our sanity...

The results I'd hope to achieve are these:
a) Player1 runs straight at Player2 and runs through him, neither hit as they were not in range long enough to do so.
b) Player1 runs straight at Player2 and runs through him, attempts to back up and hit Player1, but Player 2 turns around and kills Player1 before he's in range
c) Player1 thinks he's smart because he has daggers and player 2 has battle axes, player1 comes up, hits player2 and either turns and  runs or runs away backwards, either way Player2 follows and either cuts him down from behind, or exchange blows as player1 backs up.
d) Player1 and Player2 are both smart, they run towards each other and attempt to exchange blows while at the same time trying to a point where the other is out of range.

IMO this would make things a little more exiting than a simple point and click system, but make it a little less dependant on lag and luck.

[zanzibar]

John80sk, I think that your ideas would best be put in a new thread.


That said, I like the idea of combat stance being automated once you tell your character to be in a certain stance.  However, the reason why we need something like that is because people run around like a frog in traffic in order to bug the other guy out.  If we could eliminate that aspect of play, then I think the problem would no longer exist.

[Kerol]

I truely like John80sk's suggestions. Taking the fighting system as it is, i think they are all reasonable and feasible.

However, that would only improve the way things work now, it wouldn't be really a new way to fight (see topic ).

Also thanks to Zanzibar for remembering that threat. I really liked to hear opinions about the idea, but over time I totally forgot about this

[zanzibar]

It's dangerous to forget about threats, whether they be new or old.

[Kerol]

Good you reminded me on it

Anyways, what do you think about the option to automatize duels for people who can't really fight on themselves, either hardware-wise or person-wise?
Like giving up the direct control over the char to NPCclient when a duel is starting. The player could watch and intercept at any time (for instance to run away), but it would make things easier for some people. In this case however, NPC behaviour would have to be improved a lot and make it much more dangerous to fight, discouraging the usage of the automated fighting option. However, by implementing the "botstuff" officially as option we'd get rid of those, as a sideeffect as well.

[zanzibar]

The problem is that we'd still have a system reliant on hit and run attacks.  If duelling is to be like an arcade game, then there needs to be a better way to go about it.

[Induane]

* Induane suddenly spots a comment made earlier in the thread and ruins everything by speaking of it.

Another problem with it is that people just run through creatures like gladiators and ulbernaughts in order to kill the creature without being hit.  Isn't that an exploitation of the game mechanics?

I'm not sure what the solution is, but am I the only one who sees this as a problem?

I've always been bothered by this as well.  The reason it is the way it is currently afaik is because of spawning.  If two people spawned in the exact same place and there was intercharacter collision detection it would cause bad things to happen.  I think the solution would be to use locking on spawning locations so that when a char is spawning that location is locked, and a different random location is choosen in a certain radius.  As for creatures I think the problem is similar and a similar approach could be used.  Having character collision would eliminate one of hte really annoying parts of dueling.. running through someone then turning around.

[bilbous]

Either that or have the spawn points immune to collision detection. IE have a circle or 2-3 times the size of the largest puppet in diameter where people spawn and make it impossible to enter from outside. As soon as the puppets leave the boundaries of this region they bump. Inside they can do nothing but stand or leave.

[Pizzasgood]

*Toomin attempts to cross the street, but is repelled by an invisible force.  Then a huge Kran appears from nowhere, then from his chest region the arm of a Ylian pops out.
*Toomin decides to go back to his mountain and get some more sleep.

[Kerol]

The biggest problem with collision detection enabled on characters is that it is very exploitable. We want to minimize the possibility of players restricting others as much as possible.
For instance a high level char could keep a newb from entering the tavern collision detection is enabled *all the time*.
This however gives me the idea to only enable it during a fight - and only against the foe.
I think that is a feasible and best solution overall, what do you think?

[Unnamed_Source]

It would lead to using /unstick in combat. Though it be funy as heck to see somone spamming hit/flee on an Ulber only to get stuck on it. Just make it  so the Monsters and characters can't hurt each other when it happens. Then like how in Real Life  you see contests of how many people can fit in phone booth or in a VW bug. cept yopu replace the VW and booth with Ulbers and other characters. Plneshift can have the  "how many characters can get stuck in combat" "how many extra limbs can an ulber aquire" contests. just a /screenshot will do.

[neko kyouran]

It would lead to using /unstick in combat.

There is code already in game to prevent this.  Unstick in a duel and you auto forfeit. At least, I'm pretty sure that it was like that at one time.

[dying_inside]

Ok, here's my incrtedibly quick fix while I think more indepth about this problem.

Chracters running through everything - Colission detection,  no running through people, you can back up but you cant actually run strait through someone.

Movement in combat -  Several styles of combat which effect the movment?

Untrained - You stand slightly hunched over, with your weapon raised and make clumsy steps, there is no real centre of gravity and your likly to miss or strike badly. Your lack of knowledge measn that you dont always have t face or opponent or run away. You can try and run to the side for what its worth.  Your movement is pretty much asprint though, easily calculated and your opponent is likly to just stick their weapon out to the side and let you cut yourself in half on it. 

Fencer - shuffles  around in combat light on their feet,  forever facing the opponent darting in an out, with emphasis on  agility and speed. Can be used only with light swords or daggers.

Warrior - Feet pretty much shoulder width apart usually one slightly in front of the other to  strengthen your balance, you face you enemy, it involves cirlcing and more
defensive manuavers such as parrying and blocking to avoid death, rather than dodging. This works better for Single handed weapons.

Headsman - Designed for double handed axes, You hold your axe across your body, the bottom hand faced up, the hand closest o the head facing down and from there  you  can make strong but slow attacks. Facing your ooponent at all times. Your movement is impaired by the axe but your axes position means that you have a decent chance of parrying a blow. To prolong your life more, its best to wear armor as your lack of manouverability can be exploited easily without it.

Zweihander - Used for the huge double bladed swords such as claymores and anything else thats more than four feet worth of edge. Better used with armor as your giant blade doesnt make you very quick, and your strike lthough powerful and forceful with velocity, they arnt very nimble. Again your always facing your opponent, and circling them. Your strikes are supposed to send them reeling and knock them off balance so you can finish them off when they arte at their weakest. That or you can see if you can cut strait through their guard. Whatever works best.

Assassin - Free roam in pretty much any direction up to a certain distance and must Always keep your oponent at least partially in view. Your aim is to outmanouver them using  the scenery to hide and kill them via underhand methods such as slitting their throat, back stabbing, exploiting weak points in their armor, cutting tendons and rending them immobile before you finish them off. Poisons on your blade also work best with this. Used for small weapons such as daggers. Any armor heavier than leather  impares and slows down your characters movementsso darting in and out of your opponennts range can become unreliable.

Berzerker - A stance given as a trait at birth rather than learnt. Those who are consumed with  feverish bloodlust  become crazed and uncontrollable, they are likly to ignore most wounds sustained  and the fry of tyheir attacks  can caused panic and fear in the most steadfast adversary. They charge like a stampede, making viciouse powerful strikes, their seemingly uncontrolled methods  is simply guided by their senses and lust for carnage and so doesnt take any defensive manouvers although it can be incridbly deadly.   

Note: These where simply some quick thought stances and I could probably think up some differant ones and improve those given time and effort etc.

The way this works: Pressing the strafe buton, now becomes instead of just stepping to the side you circle your opponent. For Styles that require you to face or opponent all the time this simple means side stepping in a circle.  If you turn away your seen to run away from your adversary. 

For the styles that dont require this, it simpy means that your caracter is alot more nimble  and runs in cricle around your enemy darting in and out within a certain distance. You still cant turn fully away without running away because this simply means that your going to be stabbed in the back.