Author Topic: Temp Dropped Item Ownership  (Read 2603 times)

Zan

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Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
« Reply #15 on: January 28, 2007, 08:05:48 pm »
Hmm well we could have a market area which is patrolled by city guards where a person can lay goods down in their stall and any thieves would be apprehended on the act and thrown out of the market place without whatever they wanted to steal. Those places would be theft-free.

And of course any well respecting NPC would not buy items that aren't the seller's property. Players will have to make up their own mind about it but even if they buy a stolen object they won't get through inspections with it.
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Nikodemus

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Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
« Reply #16 on: January 28, 2007, 08:39:44 pm »
The only question is how people may be so sure something was stolle or not. I gues if you reported to guards that some unique item got stolen from you, then hey may try to to look for it, but most of the time they can't be sure if an item they are looking at got stolen or not. All items in PS are generally the same... but we know they are from IC point of viev different... so as been said, if an item isn't first better, but for example a piece of armor or a sword, then you may expect that if smeone was told about that item being stolen, will react properly.
But don't expect every merchant and guy in the town know instantly about every item being stolen. You may be traided a stolen item, not even knowing about it and then leaving a city, you will be lucky enough that guards check you and boom, you get suprised.
There is the problem with selling such items to NPC merchants. I think they just shouldn't buy them. That's the best solution, but of course not really realistic. But so isn't realistic a NPC buing every item you want him to buy.

UtM if you are thinking about putting an item, in the middle of nowhere, or rather in a certain place for quest purposes, i think there is nothing what you can do. It is supposed to be MMORPG, not just a RPG session with your friends. The best what may be done about this, is popup before picking such item up:

"You are picking up an item which is part of a quest.
If you take it, you will most likely screw the quest for people being part of it.
"



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Under the moon

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Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
« Reply #17 on: January 29, 2007, 01:54:11 am »
Good points. But also we must remember that this is a world of magic, and empathy is a skill/attribute that can be learned. It would not be hard to make the jump to some of the guards or players being empathic, and just -knowing- you know you have a stolen item...or perhaps that you did an illegal act just by feeling the thoughts in your head. I would guess that other items or glyphs could detect if an item was stolen. This would in effect, create 'safe shopping zones' and anything outsdie of that is buy at your own risk.

Magic....hmmm. That gives me a thought. Perhaps one could obtain a Glyph of Binding or such, that would not let anyone but themselves touch an item they cast the spell on, then put down. That gives a 'realistic' magic reason for no one being able to pick your stuff up. I have actually read several books that used such a thing, and no one could touch the object without the proper spell, or someone who did take something could not put it down, and could be tracked easily.

Seytra

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Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
« Reply #18 on: February 09, 2007, 08:52:15 pm »
I think that saying "whatever you drop is free game" is oversimplifying things, and not taking into account that dropping itself doesn't work realistically.
When IRL you drop something, then you are not only able to keep an eye on it, but you also can immediately spot others trying to take it, usually way before they actually take it. In PS, you can pickup items and noone knows until the item disappeared. IRL, you could intervene, like put a hand over it or just snatch the item before the other person can take it. All of this is not possible in PS, and somehow I doubt it's feasibility.
Therefore I prefer the workings that have been proposed, even though they are less realistic. I even think that it's less realistic to be robbed of something that you put on the ground than something that you carry in your bags, because your attention is focused on it.

Even more problems arise when things are meant to represent things that aren't there, like trees, for RP purposes.
As has been said, you should have a max of items you can have on the ground at any given time, they could become free game if you leave the area, and maybe after some time elapsed (though should be way longer than 15 minutes). If you try to put more items on the ground than the limit allows, then you should simply not be able to drop it. Also, the item should, as stated, remain in your inventory, including consuming weight and space there, since otherwise you could exploit this to carry more than you actually can.
This would also stop botted mining: if you cannot hold the next ore, then you are not allowed to continue mining, so you can at most bot until you filled your inventory, which isn't very long.
I am even inclined to believe that there should be no "drop and forfeit ownership" at all. Every item should go back into your inventory, and you need to get rid of it in a proper way if you really want to dump it.

Lastly, I think that picking up items from the ground in front of their owners is not at all "realistic stealing". It's an artifact of the game mechanics, nothing else.

Either this, or we need to actually create a realistic theft system, but that will have to use the skill system instead of empathic guards. If we had these empathic guards, then we also have anti-empathic thieves, so we're back to square 1.
Skill based (basic) approach:
Steal an item: effective pickpocketing skill vs. effective awareness (including pickpocketing and other similar factors of the owner).
Then you need to either remove any tracability from the item by yourself ("change origin" skill), or sell it to someone with that skill. When the prepared item is to be sold or inspected, the inspector tests "detect origin" vs. the quality of this item's origin (hidden attribute).
It is also possible to have a list of all origins and all attempts to modify them for each object (newer ones possibly blurring older ones), so that an inspection can turn up an owner other than the last it was stolen from.

This system could then be used for all kind of stealing, not just for items dropped by accident or for RP (both of which aren't "stealing", anyway).

Edit:
Not only NPCs would be performing this origin check, but PCs also. The player would then see a message in the inspection windoe indcating the result (with varying levels of confidence depending on all skills involved, age of the theft, distance to the original owner, connection to the owner, etc.). The player can then decide what to do about this info (ignore, use to haggle, turn the seller in, etc.).

Edit 2:
BTW, the idea of the automatic duel has the major problem that the community in PS, if one can call it that at all, doesn't work well enough for this. IOW, this will result in high-powered "thieves" stealing stuff in order to get a chance of doing some PK. And as we also know, these people will remain perfectly accepted by the "community". If anything, it will be declared as "way to RP evil" or at least "fair play, you shouldn't drop stuff, and if you are RPer and not PL, then bad for you".

I completely fail to see how picking up the decoration for a wedding party can even remotely be interpreted as "RPing evil" (or "RPing" at all, unless you're the janitor cleaning up after the party is done).
« Last Edit: February 09, 2007, 09:06:50 pm by Seytra »

Under the moon

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Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
« Reply #19 on: February 10, 2007, 12:06:58 am »
Windows Vista actually gave me an idea for what you just wrote.

/place <item> (not /drop, as that constitutes giving away ownership)

Someone see the item and tries to pick it up, but gets this message: "<item> is being watched by <owner>, who it likely belongs to. Picking it up may be seen as Thievery, and punished accordingly. Take it anyways? [Yes] [No]

If [Yes], then an awareness stat kicks in, setting the thieves skills against the owner's, and anyone facing the item in question. Facing the item is -key-, and reduces the chances of going undetected to near zero. If the theft is a success, and no one was aware of it, no messages are given. However, anyone who -did- see it gets this: "<thief’s name> is trying to take <owner>'s <item>!

Now for the Vista part. If the owner sees the theft, he gets a simple message: "<name> is trying to take your <item>. Allow? [yes] [no]  *chuckles*

Basic idea of a rough draft for the base deck of a penciled in system, but you get the point. All this would have to backed up by an actual system of Law, of course.

Nikodemus

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Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
« Reply #20 on: February 10, 2007, 12:24:41 am »
*chuckles*
You forgot to add:
"Are you sure you don't want to allow?" [yes] [no] [cancel]
 ;P



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Seytra

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Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
« Reply #21 on: February 10, 2007, 04:29:14 pm »
Hmm, it's not surprising that Windows Vista gives ideas on a thieving system. It is one, after all.

Aaanyway, one might also have an "always allow / always ask / always deny" thieving preset in the options.
Facing the item is -key-, and reduces the chances of going undetected to near zero. If the theft is a success, and no one was aware of it, no messages are given. However, anyone who -did- see it gets this: "<thief’s name> is trying to take <owner>'s <item>!
Not sure if physically facing would work out well, even though it obviously would be realistic. The characters can't face things as easily as one can IRL, and one has to constantly readjust the position already, so it might become very tedious. Possibly the intent, but it could render the system unmanagable. Maybe it would be better to have the owner auto-watch the item placed, and anyone can optionally watch any item anywhere. There needs to be a limit to how many items can be watched at once, as well as the distance, and the line of sight plus size and awareness and such.
Additionally, there could be "causal watching" that everyone always uses on any object in their vincinity, but that has less chances of spotting theft (basically, you just happen to look at the right thing at the right time).

I'd still like to completely get rid of the /drop that forfeits ownership. If it, for once, actually is the intent, then it is done to cause trouble or be "funny" (the 10^2000000000000000000000000th Army of Dwarves, etc.).

drah

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Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
« Reply #22 on: March 08, 2007, 02:53:13 am »
While the temporary ownership thing might be awkward to implement... one thing mentioned here has stood out to me and shouldn't be difficult to implement at all...

A simple function to add a dialog box - just asking if you are sure you wish to drop something.

---

I've lost count of the number of times people have dropped things, someone else picks it up.. and an argument occurs.

I like the temp. ownership idea too but I expect that'd be more difficult to actually implement.

lordraleigh

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Re: Temp Dropped Item Ownership
« Reply #23 on: March 08, 2007, 04:58:41 am »
This sometimes happen in marriage events that aren't supported by GMs, when someone(usually a noob or leet) goes there and starts looting all the decoration from them.

The "c00l fr66 w64ps" must end.