Author Topic: Wishes For a Viable Economy  (Read 2347 times)

Rockhoof

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Wishes For a Viable Economy
« on: May 11, 2006, 10:27:19 pm »
I'm fairly certain that this is the appropriate thread, but if it isn't, please move it.  I searched for similar threads in the past year but didn't find any specific discussions of the economy of Planeshift, but a rather lot of dicussions of the economy as pertains to this thing or that technique.

I've been a student of in-game economies since I discovered MUDs waaaay back in the 80's, and while I'm certainly not an expert, I like to think that I have some small insight into game economies that may not be obvious to the more casual student.  I also like to write essays, so be prepared for a long-ish post. :P

What is an ideal in game economy?  Simply put, an ideal economy requires no 'adjustment' by outside sources and all items have a relatively steady value based on their rarity and usefulness.  This, is a pipe-dream... can't happen, won't happen and will never happen as long as players are actors within an economy that allows trade between those actors.  Players and their reasons for things are simply too dynamic and chaotic (in the mathematical sense) to predict.  However, if players CAN'T trade items, then there is no effective economy, just players purchasing the 'needed' items from vendors while steadily accumulating more and more tria that has no real use.  Now, if this is the road that Planeshift wishes to take, then the rest of this post will be relatively useless.  So feel free to stop reading here.

Still with me?  Good.  Let's figure out what exactly a player's attributes are in an ideal economy:

1. A player will have, over the lifetime of the character, an average of 0 tria.  That's right.  Ideally, over time, players have NO money.  They earn money and then spend it on various goods (soulbound items, reagents, single or limited use items) and services (repairs, guild memberships, Auction House taxes, citizenship rights &ct).  Pretty amazing isn't it?  All money generated in game should, ideally, pass through player's hands and then be taken OUT of the economy, giving a player yet another reason to keep playing the game (aside from the primary purpose of any MMO, which is to interact with people who share your love of the fantastic)!

2. A player will provide economic lubrication for other players by generating cash and other tradeable resources.  While a player will, over time, have 0 tria, each player is going to infuse the economy with a certain amount of cash.  Tria influx ideally should equal tria outflux, but each additional player increases the size of the FLOW of that cash.  30 players interacting generate a small stream of resources, 3,000 generate a veritable flood.

Ok, so what's the problem?

The principle problem of game economies is MUD-flation, a term that comes from the observation that player-to-player prices rise (sometimes drastically and quickly) as the game becomes more 'mature'.  There are many, many processes that contribute to the inflationary pressures on a game economy that have no real world equivalent.  This wouldn't seem to be a problem, except that inflation does two nasty things to a game:

1. Inflation reduces the purchasing power of people.  There is a theoretical maximum amount of in-game cash that can be generated per hour, and most people will not even approach that maximum.  However, inflation is based primarily on the amount of money in a system and NOT on how 'efficient' people are at generating that money - efficient generation of cash just excaberates the situation.  If outflux doesn't match influx, prices rise without regard to how easy things are to aquire.

2. Inflation reduces the influx of new people.  THIS is the real problem.  With astronomical prices, the effort required by NEW players to make headway is proportionately astronomically higher.  Established actors on the economic stage got to experience the time BEFORE inflation and have had the time and opportunity to make adjustments.  New players don't have this benefit.

So, now that I've set the stage, here's my wishlist, it's fairly general and intended to generate thought and discussion, I'm no wizard and I don't have all the answers, nor am I a snake-oil salesman selling tonics and cure-alls.  Some of these ideas have been discussed before (and to death) but it is instructive to consider what the OVERALL interaction will generate for the play environment.

1. Force players to specialize.  Players that are good at absolutely everything have very little incentive to participate in an economy.

2. Assume that an average player will spend about three hours per week 'working' to earn the funds for things he wishes to aquire.  Decide what amount of tria/week we want the average person to be earning.  When people discover ways to earn more, work to bring those methods in line with the average.  This should NOT extend to player-player interactions, this is merely moving money around the economy and doesn't directly affect it.

2. Keep item upkeep costs OUT of the hands of players.  We WANT tria moving out of the economy and the item trade already does a good job of keeping money moving within it.  Repairs should make money disappear forever.

3. Initiate some form of Auction House (yes, I'm sure this has been dicussed before, but it's germaine to the post :P ), which takes a cut of each sale.  Players will naturally gravitate to using an AH because it means that they can 'make' money while not having to be physically there, and it gives developers an opportunity to take yet more tria out of the economy by charging a 'convienence fee'.  Players trading in and amongst themselves do not contribute to inflation, they're just moving money around that already exists.

4. Activities that cost money should be introduced into the game. Some examples:
  a. Quests that require farmed items are a great way to accomplish this within a heavy RP environment.  For example: create a 'City Guard' faction and a 'Thieve's Guild' faction that are always in need of supplies, with turn-in NPCs in various parts of the city and world.  They take donations of smelted ore and other items (common stuff is worth appreciably less than the rarer stuff, of course), to make and repair their stuff and for 'potions' and other various and sundry things.  In return, after a certain amount of 'effort' on the part of the player, new items can be gained, or prices can be reduced, or other benefits can be reaped, limited only by our imaginations.  The two factions can occasionally change their 'requirements', based on what's currently in abundance in the economy.  Which-ever faction gets the most turn-ins in a given section of the city affects how that zone looks.  If the 'Thieve's Guild' is 'winning', then that part of town steadily becomes darker, dingier and dirtyer, the opposite happens if the 'City Guard' is winning.
  b. Items that can only be aquired through quests that require the player to engage in both activities that don't directly generate income and to spend what money they have: go here, talk to this person, learn some history, come back, go kill this one special mob and loot this piece of it, bring that piece back, learn some more history, go to that expert over there, talk to him, learn some more history, aquire 10 of item X, 15 of item Y and 30 of item Z, go to this manufacturer, give them the mats, learn yet more history, get the prize.  This is the equivalent of the Heroic Quest that everyone is playing the game to find.  We all want to be heroes.

5. Activities that don't generate money should be introduced into the game.  This is a bit of a catch-all, but there should be things players can do to improve their characters that don't earn them cash or drops.  Earning points towards rewards that cannot be purchased with cash will reduce the influx of cash. 
  a.  A PvP arena where killing other players earns you points towards the title of 'Arena Master' - who gets some benefits that other players don't - is a good example of this.  Players may even have to choose between turning in those points to multiple different factions, each of whom gives different types of rewards.
 b.  Drops from mobs that can be used to turn in for quest rewards, once a certain level of reputation has been reached with the faction giving out those rewards.


The whole idea is to have MORE things to spend money on/spend time doing than ways to earn it.  As long as players generate money, there will never be a DEflation issue.

My two bits.

Karyuu

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2006, 10:38:13 pm »
Rockhoof, I've been reading your recent contributions to the forum with much interest, and I'd like to thank you for taking the time to actually create posts with so much (useful!) content that both analyzes and suggests. All of your points are very well-made and clear, and I cannot find myself disagreeing with any. It's going to take some time for the game to reach this level of "economic stability" especially when some wipes are just inevitable, but I believe this is what the aim ultimately is - as it creates a dynamic and fun experience that new players can immediately get the hang of.

Kudos to you :}
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Zan

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2006, 08:26:16 am »
Very nice summary of a very present problem. A few notes though ...

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3. Initiate some form of Auction House (yes, I'm sure this has been dicussed before, but it's germaine to the post Tongue ), which takes a cut of each sale.  Players will naturally gravitate to using an AH because it means that they can 'make' money while not having to be physically there, and it gives developers an opportunity to take yet more tria out of the economy by charging a 'convienence fee'.  Players trading in and amongst themselves do not contribute to inflation, they're just moving money around that already exists.

While I understand that the reason here is only to get money out of the gamen through fees for saling and buying, I'm having one issue with this idea. That issue is that if you create an auction house where can make money whithout physically needing to be there, you could seriously damage player run stores and player-to-player roleplaying interactions. So a better alternative to this would be charging a fee for a merchanting license.

Then a second point ...

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2. Inflation reduces the influx of new people.  THIS is the real problem.  With astronomical prices, the effort required by NEW players to make headway is proportionately astronomically higher.  Established actors on the economic stage got to experience the time BEFORE inflation and have had the time and opportunity to make adjustments.  New players don't have this benefit.

I think that this does hold some truth but you're seeing inflation here as a very uniform force, according to your post inflation occurs on all items and is a bad thing. According to me inflation does not occur on all player-tradeable items due to NPC standards (unlimited supply keep their price low) and the simple knowledge of the buying power of new people. Inflation is also not necessary bad either but lets use the shop I occasionally run for an example.

With the Vaalnor Shop we have set our prices so that for normal and simple items, the ones that are needed by new players, our prices go under the selling prices of NPC's. However the rarer and far more valuable items like rare glyphs or powerful weapons can have quite high prices. Those items shouldn't be easy to acquire by new players and are allowed to cost a fortune, even for an experienced player. Their prices are determined by the buying power of the richer class of players.

For example we sell normal daggers at 50 trias, a price that can be gotten easily by doing a single quest. At the same time we sell very powerful daggers at a price that is 1000 to 2000 times higher.

 Good daggers are the most desired weapons in the game after all, this doesn't mean their normal equivalent has to suffer from inflation though. NPC providers with set prices will always make sure the price for normal items stays equal or under those. If we sell normal weapons for a higher price than the local NPC blacksmith we won't be selling at all. Rare items are quickly and strongly affected by inflation though since they are not available on a steady basis. I do not see that as a problem however.

Your post still makes some very good points in that any game has a constantly incoming cash flow so there need to be services that make sure cash goes out as well. It'll prevent the need for future "money wipes" :P
Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

Grayne Dholm, Follower of Dakkru

Bereror

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2006, 01:29:59 pm »
An excellent post :thumbup:

But I would like to remind you that we are paying for training to NPCs and it is a constant outflow of money from the game economy. Without some well known bugs we had in the past, the economy would be quite well balanced.

The current high inflation has two reasons:
a) All the weapons above /10 were wiped leaving most of the people with empty hands. It created a high demand for better weapons.
b) The well known bug added millions of trias into the game economy. People were willing to spend more money on items they wanted to get.

I hope the recent money wipe removed some pressure from the economy and it should calm down again.

If you look at older threads in these forums, then about 6 months ago people were actually complaining about deflation. Prices were dropping dramatically because there was not enough demand on market. I expect to see the same happening again.
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Choren

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2006, 10:26:43 pm »
I think there are some good ideas, but I think the ecomney would be better to talk about when they have all the skills load in the game.

Why should I speak, if no one speaks?  Why should I approach, if no one approaches?  Why should I hear, if no one hears?

Rockhoof

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #5 on: May 14, 2006, 06:15:44 am »
While I understand that the reason here is only to get money out of the gamen through fees for saling and buying, I'm having one issue with this idea. That issue is that if you create an auction house where can make money whithout physically needing to be there, you could seriously damage player run stores and player-to-player roleplaying interactions. So a better alternative to this would be charging a fee for a merchanting license.

A player-run store would, I assume, need to be manned by players.  This is great if you're a player/store owner, but what if you're a buyer?  The other side of the coin isn't so rosy IMO.  Players need to be logged on to run player-owned stores.  Buyers are out of luck if you're not on.  It's a problem of availability.

If you allow a shopkeeper NPC to conduct business while you're logged off (a good source of outflux, but only for a limited number of players - namely those who like being shopkeepers), then why not just have an AH and be done with it?  Compare shop-keeper fees that affect a couple of dozen players vs. an AH that takes a brokerage cut of every transaction...  More money will be taken out of the economy via the AH than player run shops.

Secondly, there are LOTS of games that have both a clearing house and player-run shops.  They serve different purposes.  The AH is for fast moving bulk and the player run places generally have smaller, more expensive inventories - which can be filled using the AH.

Thirdly, an AH is role-playing, of the most subtle kind.  You can make a job out of playing the AH, it's called 'Commodity Trader' and it's a natural outgrowth of any clearing house type system. 

The point is that the two aren't mutually exclusive, but the AH provides advantages to the economy as a whole that player-run shops don't have. 

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2. Inflation reduces the influx of new people.  ...  New players don't have this benefit.

I think that this does hold some truth but you're seeing inflation here as a very uniform force, according to your post inflation occurs on all items and is a bad thing. According to me inflation does not occur on all player-tradeable items due to NPC standards (unlimited supply keep their price low) and the simple knowledge of the buying power of new people.

Inflation both is and isn't a uniform force, depending on how you look at it.  From a macro-economic perspective, inflation IS a uniform force, because the average price has increased.  This is the perspective that I was taking.

Your individual shop is an absolutely perfect example of the micro-economic perspective of inflation.  Individual goods and services are going to be affected differently by inflation - following a geometric progression.  Low value items will tend to suffer deflation, low-medium value items are relatively unchanged, and anything worth more than that is where you actually see the inflation.

The problem is that it's the low value items that are the most numerous.  This means that it's the much smaller percentage of high value items that are actually driving the average price of all items up.  The only way that they can do this is by having their prices increase to values much, much higher than before the inflationary period was entered.  Think about it this way: 70% of items (the low-value stuff) actually decrease in price, but the average price has increased...

Zan

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #6 on: May 14, 2006, 09:58:58 am »
The thing with an auction house, where you don't need to be physically is that it is against what Planeshift wishes to accomplish, namely a world of roleplaying. An AH is quite out of character and unrealistic so I doubt it would come into existance. Personally I feel we have enough with the auction chat tab.

As for availability, yes it is an issue but stores aren't open 24/7 either and we solve it by not making single-player stores but guild stores. This means that one store is maintained by a guild and has several merchants working in it. That way the shop can be open more often and available for different time-zones.

I think you also kind of missed my point with the inflation thing ... what I meant was that inflation of items that are sold by NPC's at steady prices just can't happen. Which fool is going to buy a sword for 2 times the NPC price? This is speaking only of games of course, in real life your theory would be more accurate. In games like planeshift you'll only see serious inflation of the best and strongest items. There is no average price to increase since the average prices of average products are maintained by NPC's. Only the rare item prices can increase.

Perhaps in the future the Devs will be looking to exclude NPC's from the game and make everything revolve around players, like in Guild Wars for example. There you don't have any real shops but the weapons and items are provided by the players to the players ... then your theory would be very right.
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Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

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Rockhoof

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #7 on: May 14, 2006, 07:38:52 pm »
Well, two points:

1. Vendors can, and do currently, provide basic items.  If you want better, you have to go adventuring.  Players aren't going to want vendor items for very long.  It is the vast majority of (currently upcoming) items that players are going to have to suffer inflation with, not 'vendor trash'.  Basic items are there to get you started and as such aren't worth much at all to more advanced players.  Those prices should remain static.  It's when you get player + non-vendor item interaction that you run into having to worry about inflation.  Sorry, I should have made that more clear.  I've done game design and have paid close attention to game economies that I haven't had a design influence on too. 

2. AHs aren't 'realistic'?  Bah! :P  I'd argue that they're more 'realistic' than NPC vendors standing around 24hrs a day with infinite amounts of cash waiting to buy stuff from you.  The AH is an NPC controlled business that provides a much needed service for players - who can't be online 24hrs a day - and makes it's 'profit' by charging a listing fee.  That's realism.  Consider: There are a couple of very rich NPCs running around who 'own' the auction house, making a killing off of providing their services to players who don't want to run a store, and who are willing to take a small risk in losing their listing fee if an item doesn't sell.  An AH is an enabler for players, and a fabulous way to take some cash flow out of the economy.  Again, player-run stores and an auction house are not mutually exclusive.  A player-run store doesn't have to worry about listing fees, it's a far more secure way to earn income, at the price of a smaller 'inventory' than what can be found at an AH.

Then again, there is such a thing as too much versimilitude, but that's a topic for another post.

Vengeance

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #8 on: May 14, 2006, 08:03:35 pm »
Rockhoof,

I agree with karyuu that this is a great post and what we like to see in the Wish List discussions.

I have a different opinion on Mudflation though.  Economics was my field of study at university, which indicates that I have a lot of interest in this subject, not that I am an expert at economics... :-)

I think you are really conflating two separate phenomena here.  a) True inflation, where it takes more money to buy the same items than it did before.  b) Technological advancement making more advanced items cost more.

a) Inflation.  I disagree with your premise that inflation of items hurts newbies joining the game because newbie items are all sold by merchants at fixed prices.  What was 10 tria today is going to be 10 tria tomorrow.  At higher levels, people pay millions of tria for +1 more than their last item because of scarcity of the item and relative abundance of money.  We could take money out of the system, as you say, to solve this or we could make sure that more expensive weapons are also plentiful, so that the growth in items is matched by the growth in the money supply.  This is why growing economies have low inflation.

b) Higher prices caused by better items.  In much the same way that a CAT scan machine costs more than a Band-Aid (way more), a +10 Uber Sword of Death is going to cost orders of magnitude more than the Rusty Ruined Dagger.  And if a +11 weapon comes out, it is going to cost even more.  This is akin to technological advancement in our society.  Is it harder for an aboriginal tribesman to "catch up" with the 21st century from his wooden spear than it would have been for the same tribesman 1000 years ago? Yes it probably is, but that doesn't mean that all progress should stop and our progress doesn't make the tribesman less able to catch kangaroos with his spear.

Most games' biggest problem in this area isn't taxing and surcharging players on everything but in having any kind of consumption model.  Aside from your house purchase, practically everything you spend money on effectively disappears within a week or within 5-6 years.  Food, cars, stereos, game subscriptions.  Food disappears though.  Cars wear out and depreciate.  Stereos get resold at garage sales for $5.  Soon, items in PS will also wear out (slowly), which will hurt the value to both merchants and players of those items.  Repairs will cost money as well.

The other thing we really need is a freely floating pricing market with the npc's as well as the players, so that players don't get rich from exploits because we devs guessed wrong about how many people could find platinum.  An adjusting market would cut the price of platinum if lots of people starting selling it, and limit how much artificial wealth is created this way.  If we enable merchants to buy players' items at fair market value and sell those same items again at a markup, we are in essence creating your AH without needing an AH.  With this freely floating market system, some players will make money on their items and some will lose money.  I expect 'playing this market' to become a game it inself--an alternative to the level grinding and story-level RPing currently going on.

- Venge

Zan

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #9 on: May 14, 2006, 09:02:17 pm »
Something else that will have a huge impact on item prices would be 'wear and tear' I think. Right now all you need is two uber weapons and you're settled as far as equipment goes. What I'd like to see is weapons degrading in time or even being destroyed completely. That way a player will need to re-equip regularly and the prices for uber weapons will go down just because they aren't permanent anymore. Everyone will think twice about spending their entire savings on a set of swords that might be destroyed in a few dozen fights.

Repairing those weapons would then again be one of the ways to take cash out of the economy and of course the better the weapon, the harder and more expensive it is to repair.
Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

Grayne Dholm, Follower of Dakkru

Bereror

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #10 on: May 14, 2006, 09:37:39 pm »
Something else that will have a huge impact on item prices would be 'wear and tear' I think.

It is coming and soon(tm) ;)
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Rockhoof

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #11 on: May 14, 2006, 09:53:06 pm »
Rockhoof,


a) Inflation.  I disagree with your premise that inflation of items hurts newbies joining the game because newbie items are all sold by merchants at fixed prices.  What was 10 tria today is going to be 10 tria tomorrow.  At higher levels, people pay millions of tria for +1 more than their last item because of scarcity of the item and relative abundance of money.  We could take money out of the system, as you say, to solve this or we could make sure that more expensive weapons are also plentiful, so that the growth in items is matched by the growth in the money supply.  This is why growing economies have low inflation.

It's not the 'true' newbies I'm worried about.  You last in that state for about two weeks, not really affecting much because you don't know much.  I'm talking about just established players in comparison to fully established players who have been playing for months.  I think we can all agree that the truly newbie items aren't subject to the economy per se, because the vendors supply them at fixed - and low - prices, regardless of the economic situation.  It's the items that are upgrades to the vendor trash that are going to be subject to inflation.  

Re: Expensive weapons being plentiful.  The problem with this idea is that it doesn't match how games handle high-powered items.  Making the good stuff readily available cheapens them, which players don't want.  Players like to feel they've earned that Sword of Ubar Power, and making them plentiful counters that idea.  The good items are (and should be) hard to get, either because of low droprates, they need to be gathered by parties, they need to be created, they need to be quested for or some combination of the above.  Having an influx of good and cheap items counterintuitively spurs on inflation because players don't really have anything to spend their tria on!

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b) Higher prices caused by better items... 

I'm not so sure about this one, but then again, I haven't concentrated on the micro-economics of game worlds much either, I find that tracking individual prices of items doesn't teach you as much about the workings of the economy as other methods might.  The only critique I can offer is that 'technological' advancement in a game is going to work slightly differently than in the real world, because the 'R&D' isn't done by players, who therefore don't have to recover research costs.  Items would tend to be rather immediately valued at their relative worth to the playerbase, after the couple of weeks of 'Ohh! New and shiny!' have worn off.  These prices, of course, intimately depend on the amount of tria/player.

Quote
Most games' biggest problem in this area isn't taxing and surcharging players on everything but in having any kind of consumption model.  Aside from your house purchase, practically everything you spend money on effectively disappears within a week or within 5-6 years.  Food, cars, stereos, game subscriptions.  Food disappears though.  Cars wear out and depreciate.  Stereos get resold at garage sales for $5.  Soon, items in PS will also wear out (slowly), which will hurt the value to both merchants and players of those items.  Repairs will cost money as well.

I FULLY agree with this point, and the whole purpose of the post was to give some concrete manifestation to the idea of maximising outflow.  It's FAR and away easier to combat deflation than it is to combat inflation in a game environment.  Combatting deflation creates more net worth per player, which will always make them happier.  Combatting inflation, on the other hand, is most easily achieved by lowering the amount of money players can accrue per unit time.

Quote
The other thing we really need is a freely floating pricing market with the npc's as well as the players, so that players don't get rich from exploits because we devs guessed wrong about how many people could find platinum.  An adjusting market would cut the price of platinum if lots of people starting selling it, and limit how much artificial wealth is created this way.  If we enable merchants to buy players' items at fair market value and sell those same items again at a markup, we are in essence creating your AH without needing an AH.  With this freely floating market system, some players will make money on their items and some will lose money.  I expect 'playing this market' to become a game it inself--an alternative to the level grinding and story-level RPing currently going on.

This is true.  However, I would argue that a far easier implementation would be to have vendor type NPCs always willing to buy items, at rediculously low prices, ones far, far below market value while simultaneously having a free-floating PC market for people willing to take risks.  I would even argue that such a setup is even NECESSARY, because vendors represent a nearly limitless potential inflow of tria (giving vendors 'bank limits' opens them up to abuse by players who want people to not be able to sell their items).  Remember, we want to encourage player-player interaction (without forcing it), and allowing vendors to buy and sell at some determined market price doesn't do that, it just encourages players to go to the vendors with their stuff.

Reasonably, you want vendors to be as minor a portion of the economy as possible.  Allowing them to buy and sell stuff at prices players are willing to pay just increases the value of going to a vendor.  We haven't even gotten to the difficulty of how we would determine such a value if players are going to vendors...

Remember, players trading amongst themselves cannot reasonably either inflate or deflate prices, because the vast majority of these pressures is determined by the ratio of money/person and players are just trading tria that already exists.  When you have MONEY/person, you have inflationary pressures, when you have money/PERSON you have deflationary pressures.  Allowing vendors to sell at market prices - as opposed to some arbitrarily low price as determined by the internal 'value' of an item, you vastly increase the potential to have a MONEY/person situation.

Oh, and I've studied economics at the university level too, I also have several years practical experience studying game economies like EQ's, EQ2's and WoW's as well as smaller economies as seen in MUDs like AVATAR (which has virtually no economy, interesting in it's own right).


P.S. There are a number of great ways to take money out of the economy:

1. Repair costs.
2. Bind on Use items: A purchase of one of these to use immediately takes money out of the economy, permanently.
3. Taxes in various forms - from AH clearing costs, to vendors only buying at fractions of actual value, to 'business' licenses.
4. Quests.
5. Activites that don't directly generate tria, but take significant amounts of time and effort on the part of players.

I'm sure there are many others.  Regardless, there needs to be some method to balance in-flow of tria with outflow of tria.  Unrestricted in-flow undoubtedly causes inflation.


Aori

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #12 on: May 15, 2006, 02:49:24 am »
This is an issue that I spend a lot of time thinking on. Having played a few MMORPGs and a few Forum based RPGs it is interesting to compare the different types. This is my first post, so forgive my slight intrusion to the debate (I've been following Planeshift for a few years now but only just signed up to the forums. I also haven't logged into the game for since some older release). A lot of good points made so far. Many of which I can agree with or at least understanding the logic of an idea that I don't quite agree with.

I've noticed that there tends to be common personality types that play games, as I'm sure you have as well. People have a tendency to hold items and money. I do it. So these items become semi-permanent. People that save up are not spending. So the net flow of wealth is not moving out of the game as you might hope. This would seem to conclude with the ideas of inflation above. It would make sense that item decay would help to rectify this. But I'd doubt if it was enough to put a cap on inflation. Plus many players may find tax and item decay to be a hinderance to gameplay (I did mean gameplay and not leveling).

As players get wealthy they want to splash out and buy the best items. So item decay and repair costs may become a drop in the ocean of vast wealth that they have accumulated. Also, as has been mentioned above with the tribesman example, new players will have a much bigger gap to fight in order to reach the most expensive items if new ones are constantly released. Which is why I make this suggestion: RP only items. They would need to be bought from NPCs (for wealth out flux reasons).
 That is, items that look cool, perhaps very ornate yet have no useful or perhaps very low level stats. The real point of ownership with these items is a status symbol. Rich players spend their wealth in order to look cooler yet they also help with the net outflux of wealth. But, not everyone wants to look cool and perhaps no one would buy a 'useless' and expensive item. So back to the drawing board with the need for greater ingenuity. Then perhaps, the items can only be purchased at a certain time of the year or perhaps can only be purchased in one particularl year, ie rarity. This would attract players to buy them. Of course they will want to sell them at some point but at least they have spent some of their wealth in acquiring them (subject to item decay as prescribed in the previous posts; more expensive items = more expensive repair costs). I see no reason that the most expensive items should necessarily be the most useful.
  I think this naturally leads to the idea that the most powerful items in the game should involve strict roleplay as opposed to a simple purchase. Does it not ruin the actual value of the item if you can merely 'buy' it for a million trias (for example)?

 I do not see the inflation issue as something that can be solved with a single answer, infact I suspect it will need a dynamic response that changes over time. I would also suggest that items are more expensive in activity hot spots such as cities, perhaps exponentially so, then cheaper out in a village/remote shop.

I look forward to more receiving feedback and reading further discussion from the current posters.

Zan

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2006, 08:04:14 am »
I think we already have a mild form of what you describe, Aori.

Lately I found myself a Gold Plated Dagger of Seduction. While the dagger isn't very useful in combat, no wonder since gold is a very soft metal .. it could definitely be used as a roleplaying object I think. Problem is, nobody wants to buy it since it doesn't look any differently and you only see the name in inventory and trade windows. It will definitely not become one of the most expensive items until it gives an obvious effect. People only buy something that has a use: dealing damage, visual differentiation, skill improvement, ...

I'm curious what some real crafting will do to the economy though ...
Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

Grayne Dholm, Follower of Dakkru

Suno_Regin

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Re: Wishes For a Viable Economy
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2006, 11:44:49 pm »
Either the prices will drop by a few tons on these items that are now sold for around 500K, or everyone will craft and get them for free...maybe buy them from people who craft to save time.