Author Topic: Octarch's chess  (Read 4357 times)

Kerol

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Octarch's chess
« on: May 19, 2006, 01:59:59 am »
I worked out this minigame idea for PS the last few days with help by some friends (Seperot, Kanalal and Nilrem, mainly).
I tested it out myself and made the rules clearer and simpler, but it still needs a lot of testing.

However, I talked to Talad and he was positive about this little project (otherwise I wouldn't post this here).
The infrastructure for minigames is in development recently, so there's a chance that this idea is included ingame sooner than later.

If you have friends, family to play with or just want to take a look at it and test out by yourself, feel free to download it :)

Here you can download the rules and board (the board jpg isn't as clean as it could be, but it shouldn't be a problem):

http://66.83.137.5:27967/chessrules.r6.pdf
http://66.83.137.5:27967/octarchchess.jpg

Thanks to Rerogo for hosting the files ^^

If you find any problems, uncertainties, typos or only want to send me a strawberry, just  pm me :)


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Pale

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2006, 03:03:04 am »
That's really really cool  :thumbup:

I'll try out a few games, and see if there is anything that leaps out to me as a problem.
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Kerol

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2006, 07:58:26 pm »
I have concerns about the power of the megara-riders. Using them in the very beginning may cause chessmate within 2 turns. Even when the mate is prevented, it puts the one with the first turn in a big advantage.
I considered changing the starting positions as one option and giving diplomats and vigesimi the power to prevent "overflights" , prevent units from moving over them (but not capturing them, of course) as second option.
In exchange one could reduce the power of the vigesimi by restricting them on 2 moves per turn.

However, those are just considerations if the recent setup doesnt work out.

People who test out the game may try those options and see whats more fun :)


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Kixie

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #3 on: May 21, 2006, 03:50:36 am »
My only critique is that each side seems really far away from each other. Perhaps you should make the board a bit smaller? Other wise, it seems like the entire game would just be a chase.

Kerol

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2006, 05:02:36 am »
There are several reasons for that board size:
- Many pieces can move very fast over the board, making it possible to actually play tactically, not just strategically (building walls with the adventurers and such, though that is possible too)
- An octarch needs space to actually be able to run away, once his temple is taken over
- With that setup all fields on a players side are covered, giving little security against very soon and not well thought out attacks
- In a few moves (taking the hero on the starting position as example) you come to a good position at the rim of the opponents side, without entering yet

I don't think the board size itself is a problem. If people actually complain about the start being too slow, I rather change the starting positions and/or movement rules of the units than the board size. Doesn't mean that I ultimately will never consider changing the size, of course. With good reasons and some actual examples I am convinceable ;)
It's also the question how the fields being hexagonal are affecting the gameplay, considering the higher freedom for each piece.


Just a random sidenote: I calculated a bit after those concerns regarding the board size :)
european chess: 64 fields, 16 pieces per player = 32 pieces -> 32:32 fields = 1:1 (covered:free)
chinese chess: 90 line crossings (you play on the lines, not the fields), 16 pieces per player = 32 pieces -> 32:58  =1:1,8125 =(about) 1:2
octarchs chess: 144 fields, 18 pieces per player = 36 pieces -> 36:108 fields = 1:3

PS (offtopic): I also tried to calculate with the help of a formula how many usable line crossings (fields where you could move to, if one played on the lines instead) this board has and i failed horribly >.>

Edit: I found a formula, but not sure if it is right. The first attempt was by counting the edges of the fields and deriving the number of crossings by that. Second now:
2 x Sigma [from 1 to 12]=(2n+1)
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 05:18:20 am by Kerol »


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LigH

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #5 on: May 21, 2006, 09:29:30 am »
the board jpg isn't as clean as it could be...

PNG instead, or GIF, would have been wise.

Never use JPEG for technical drawings with hard edges, limited color counts, and high contrasts.
__

About the rules:

Very complex, IMHO. If anyone will really start to play such games, he shall expect either soon chaos (if he doesn't think well about his moves), or up to hours for a game (knowing and considering all possible kinds of moves).

Could be fun to write a simulator, which includes coding an AI opponent, and discovering values for piece classes and positions. "Arabian chess" (schah = king) engines are compex enough, "Octarch's chess" engines will top that easily by some factor.

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Kerol

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #6 on: May 21, 2006, 01:00:33 pm »
Quote
Very complex, IMHO. If anyone will really start to play such games, he shall expect either soon chaos (if he doesn't think well about his moves), or up to hours for a game (knowing and considering all possible kinds of moves).
You mean too complex? Which of the rules you have in mind when stating this and what would you like to have simpler?

Edit: And thanks for the tip with the graphics :)
Kanalal sent me a updated board graphics. Will upload it as png asap.
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 01:10:56 pm by Kerol »


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LigH

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #7 on: May 21, 2006, 02:38:22 pm »
Maybe not "too", but quite complex. For example, the different ways of using a diplomat (kamikaze diplomacy, very funny...), open a lot of very different ways to surprise your opponent. And the conversion of opponent pieces to own (which does not exist in arabian chess) will vary heavily in value, depending on the place the piece is located, which will make it even harder to calculate for an AI. :D

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Kerol

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #8 on: May 21, 2006, 02:54:39 pm »
I see your point. Calculating the possibilities with such a big board, the templefields, the movement types which open up a lot of possibilities already (edit: also because the fields being hexagonal), plus the conversion thing _and_ additionally, the random element of a diplomat... not a trivial thing to program.. but who needs an AI if one can have a human opponent ;)

As long as the players relatively easy can get the principals of the game, it should be OK, IMO :)

Do you have problems in understanding the rules at one point? Any suggestions regarding movement, units?

Another Edit:
Do you have a link to a site where arabian chess is explained?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2006, 03:03:12 pm by Kerol »


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steuben

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #9 on: May 21, 2006, 05:15:43 pm »
arabian chess -> chess... for the most part.
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LigH

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #10 on: May 21, 2006, 08:25:23 pm »
I called it "Arabian chess" mostly because of the persian name "schah" and the wheat board legend; but after reading again several threads (like Wikipedia in both german and english), it appears that the modern rules are based on italian modifications.

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Pestilence

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2006, 11:05:33 am »
hmm Megara Rider seems a bit overpowered. Perhaps a good idea to limit it's range or use the jump over other pieces on an other piece. Compared to chess for example only the knight can jump over other what is why it is so unpredictable, but that is why it's movement is so limited. So it can still be cornered.

Fanatic same concern it might be a bit overpowered compared to the other pieces.

checkmate might happen a little to fast with so many jumping highrange pieces.

Diplomat seems to have a lot of options for a boardgame. ;)

Also seeing a lot of rules of things that wont be possible for 3 turns or have to be done after 3 truns and such and although in a computerprogram I don't see that as a problem I would see that as a problem when playing it as a boardgame where I would actually have to memorize all my oponents last three turns aswell to know what he can't/ has to do.

Besides that I think it looks pretty good :)

I really like the boards shape and really like the thought that has abviously been put into it.
« Last Edit: May 23, 2006, 03:28:51 am by Pestilence »

Kerol

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2006, 04:59:58 am »
I played the game monday in RL with a friend and came across a few minor problems, and after having some private talk, plus the suggestions here I updated the rules and Kanalal provided me with a better pic of the board.

Here are the links:
http://ps-mc.com/kerol/gameboard2.png
http://ps-mc.com/kerol/octarchs%20chess%20rules%20r7.pdf

This time thanks to Josephoenix for hosting :)


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Proglin

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2006, 04:20:36 pm »
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This is the message I get when I click your links Kerol... And  I wanted to test the game today with an actual chess master :S
« Last Edit: May 28, 2006, 04:23:00 pm by Proglin »
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Pestilence

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Re: Octarch's chess
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2006, 08:57:51 pm »
same I'm afraid :(