The grand balance of good vs evil

[Zan]

I've been thinking a bit lately, yeah I know bad idea but bear with me

There have always been complaints about not having enough evil characters or no roleplaying possibilities for evil characters. When I wander around a bit in-game now though I don't see anything but the wicked. Outlaws, Cult of the Dark Crystal, the Dark Vigilantes, Disciples of Darkness and so on ... I'm not sure where this sudden explosion of evil alligned guilds comes from but there is still something missing. When I'm walking around I see evil names everywhere but no evil doing. For example in the recent player event, Monk created the good guys hugely outnumbered the bad guys.

I think that if everyone really played their role though, Yliakum as we know it would be one scary place to walk around in without an armed escort of twenty men. Until now most people just run along doing the same thing though, since there isn't much you can do in planeshift, maybe that's good for us good guys

Anyways I was wondering how everyone else saw the balance between good and evil in the game right now? And what can be done to improve it or work with it? I'll post some more ideas later when I have the time.

[r.guppy]

 First you must stop and think what is evil, can you do it in game, I think the answer is no you cant, as you are confined to how you act. i.e. no swearing no upsetting players, both of witch will get you at worst banned. So what can evil do in this game ?

 I know its planed , but until it is you cant steal back-stab or murder anyone without there cooperation. You cant do a lot that is considered real evil without the threat of a ban, hence the names sagest bad goings on but in truth you can only be nice and not fear reprisals.

[Karyuu]

There is plenty of bad you can do that is entirely in-character, and I don't see why anyone needs to feel the weight of a ban at their back. OOC swearing is just stupid, anyway ;P People can lie, deceive, manipulate, they can steal and they can murder, even if not as openly as we would like. You have to be a good player at all times - but your character can be the wickedest thing in the world, and it's possible without any help from game mechanics.

[r.guppy]

Swearing is sadly a fact of life, in game it would be reasonable to expect to hear it, so it is not ooc. As for rest would like to hear a few examples please.
 P.S. I don't mean real swearwords. for example muddobber.

[Karyuu]

I was referring to real swearwords. Why would a GM ban someone for IC fantasy/medieval swearing? They'd be doing a very bad job as community leaders and wouldn't stick around much longer, in that case. This should be a given by now.

Do you really need examples of IC lying or manipulation? :} You're probably asking for examples of thieving/murder. Well, you can steal things by gaining someone's trust, or taking things they have put onto the ground carelessly, you -can- murder through dueling if you be a good player about it and notify others playing with you of your character's intentions a little in advance. Moreover, you can spread rumours, you can humiliate, you can act in greed and selfishness, and the like.

As always, this must be said to anyone reading: Make sure that if your dealing with new players, they know that you are roleplaying and not simply being cruel.

[r.guppy]

You're probably asking for examples of thieving/murder. Well, you can steal things by gaining someone's trust, or taking things they have put onto the ground carelessly, you -can- murder through dueling if you be a good player about it and notify others playing with you of your character's intentions a little in advance. Moreover, you can spread rumours, you can humiliate, you can act in greed and selfishness, and the like.

As always, this must be said to anyone reading: Make sure that if your dealing with new players, they know that you are roleplaying and not simply being cruel.

 With respect that is what I said in my post just put different.

 True evil will pray on the week [newbies] true evil will never ask permission to do evil, so i say again you cant be evil in this game, and when  theft and back-stab and all the things evil can do is implemented do you real still expect them to ask permission to do it ?

[Suno_Regin]

Seriously not playing their role. The Outlaws actually sided with good during that war. =|

[Bebel]

And a dark shadow begged the evil ton invite him in the group  :|

[Gibbard]

I am in the Outlaws. The sword I use in most of my fights is one I found on the ground.  It is quite powerful, and it's owner begged and begged for its return, nearly in tears explaining how she accidently dropped it and how she needed it back.  Though I felt I wasn't *quite* stealing, she proclaimed that I was, and she was completely unreceptive to my attempts to console her...halfhearted though they were.  She even tried to challenge me, but I had no time for a sensless and pointless fight.  There was nothing to gain from it, even though I sensed I was much stronger than she.

I suppose that good and evil are subjective.  I feel I am not evil, otherwise I would have killed her for spite.  However, I am far from good and righteous... because had I killed her, I would have had no remorse.  In fact, I would likely have laughed.   

As far as the Outlaws are concerned, we go with what we percieve holds the greatest gain for us.  Good and evil are irrelevant. 

[narita]

Good and evil beeing subjective is the result of a successful propaganda. Evil doesn't  hesitate over the means to reach its goal, including, for example, oppressing people. Good people may share roughly the same goals, but they will prefer to lost there own life instead of hurting people.

For example, an evil miner will kill other miners for ore while a good one will sacrifice his life to proctect the mine. Thus frame of mind is not mandatory and most people stay neutral about this affairs. Of course they dislike people who could kill them but will save other if they are safe themself.

Now I see a lot of difficulties to play good or evil, good people can be removed from the RP losing there life, and evil ones can be   
misunderstood by players or risk to be kicked from the server because of the rules, but it's alway fun when it works well.

[Sezrenade]

I am in the Outlaws. The sword I use in most of my fights is one I found on the ground.  It is quite powerful, and it's owner begged and begged for its return, nearly in tears explaining how she accidently dropped it and how she needed it back.  Though I felt I wasn't *quite* stealing, she proclaimed that I was, and she was completely unreceptive to my attempts to console her...halfhearted though they were.  She even tried to challenge me, but I had no time for a sensless and pointless fight.  There was nothing to gain from it, even though I sensed I was much stronger than she.

I suppose that good and evil are subjective.  I feel I am not evil, otherwise I would have killed her for spite.  However, I am far from good and righteous... because had I killed her, I would have had no remorse.  In fact, I would likely have laughed.   

As far as the Outlaws are concerned, we go with what we percieve holds the greatest gain for us.  Good and evil are irrelevant. 

Hmm, who are you in the outlaws? I don't remember the name 'Gibbard'....

[Karyuu]

True evil will pray on the week [newbies] true evil will never ask permission to do evil, so i say again you cant be evil in this game, and when  theft and back-stab and all the things evil can do is implemented do you real still expect them to ask permission to do it ?

Janner, it's like you're not reading my posts. We have to be good players - and yes that sometimes means telling other players OOC that they should expect this-or-that, and ask if they would like to go along with it. Players who cause grief to newbies are not acceptable. However, characters that have fun interacting with the characters of new players and show them what RP can be like, is great.

Is this really so hard to understand..?

Moreover, thieving and murder is not by any means a requirement for an evil character. Please don't ignore everything else that I have written.

[Xordan]

If we go by the D&D definitions, then it's impossible to properly play chaotic evil in this game. It's very possible to play lawful or neutral evil though.

[Zan]

Being evil is definitely not impossible, nor any more difficult than being good. Simplified all you can do in the game is kill, mine/melt and use supportive/healing magic. Killing/fighting is something inherently 'evil', though rarely seen as such in games because it is the standard thing to do. Mining, melting and in the future crafting would be neutral. And the supportive, especially the healing magic, would be inherently good because you are helping without harming.

Agreeing that the most extensive thing that can be done is fighting and killing you could say that the game favors evil characters over good ones.

Anyways to come back to my points, it is very possible to be evil and not get banned. As a matter of fact I can recall quite a few encounters as Tyrnal with Sezrenade, one of the Outlaws, where he was far from kind to me. He even invaded Akkaio with a fellow outlaw with the intention to find and kill Vaalnor members. All of it was roleplay and I think the player behind Sezrenade is a very fun guy, not evil at all. I have talked to him .. before, during and after the rp events and have nothing against him at all. So there are good evil roleplayers.

[zanzibar]

When I'm walking around I see evil names everywhere but no evil doing. For example in the recent player event, Monk created the good guys hugely outnumbered the bad guys.

i.  There were problems with that RP anyway.
ii.  You're assuming that all "evil" characters have the same motivation and goals.
iii.  Players who RP evil or chaotic characters are usually chastized and ostracized by the community, so there's yet another factor to deal with.

I am in the Outlaws. The sword I use in most of my fights is one I found on the ground.  It is quite powerful, and it's owner begged and begged for its return, nearly in tears explaining how she accidently dropped it and how she needed it back.  Though I felt I wasn't *quite* stealing, she proclaimed that I was, and she was completely unreceptive to my attempts to console her...halfhearted though they were.  She even tried to challenge me, but I had no time for a sensless and pointless fight.

And that's where it goes down hill.

If someone is attacking you, you can /roll for agility to try to escape, but if you're caught in the fight then you have to accept the challenge if you want to maintain the realism of the RP.