The grand balance of good vs evil

[Pestilence]

hmm I agree with Zanzibar on this.

People have to keep in mind that most forms of evil is not caring what happens to others when getting what one wants. Does this mean they are all antigoverment and chaotic? No ofcourse not. They will strive for what is most benificial for them.

A conartist for example might actually like the guards, becuase it prevents the conned people from resorting to violence when they find out they were conned. Also eventhough he is evil he will pretent to be good so the guards believe him when he says he did no such thing.

[zanzibar]

hmm I agree with Zanzibar on this.

People have to keep in mind that most forms of evil is not caring what happens to others when getting what one wants. Does this mean they are all antigoverment and chaotic? No ofcourse not. They will strive for what is most benificial for them.

A conartist for example might actually like the guards, becuase it prevents the conned people from resorting to violence when they find out they were conned. Also eventhough he is evil he will pretent to be good so the guards believe him when he says he did no such thing.

Well, "evil" is subjective.  To some people, evil is anything that's different.  To others, evil means anything not dictated by God.  To others, it means wearing white after labour day.  Means different things to different people.

[ninya]

it IS possible to be evil, maybe some of you already met me in game calling you some funny names as the insulting fenki ninya


one of my favourites are.
"then how did you get that ugly you bootlicker!"

[r.guppy]

People have to keep in mind that most forms of evil is not caring what happens to others when getting what one wants. Does this mean they are all antigoverment and chaotic? No ofcourse not. They will strive for what is most benificial for them.

 That sums it up nice. In-game there is the ability to remove items points from players so if you are caught stealing and wont give it up it can be removed, so why be nice to a player , excuse me i wont to role-play a thief give me all you tria belongings, BORING . IF you are going to play evil and the game wants you to be evil be evil, don't be nice about it.

 You are trying to build a realistic game BE realistic, so feelings get hurt so people moan and complain good that means at least someone is trying to do it right.

  My wife's reasons for not playing anymore; she joined the game not really knowing what to expect, but found it very boring no PvP no real attempts at doing bad, the emphasis seems to be on keeping every one happy.

 A quote from players guide chapter 3. Setting and Background.

Our objective is to create a persistent world in a fantasy setting, in which every player will create his character and will be able to live, explore, and interact with maximum realism.
To my mind maximum realism does not mean watching what you say and asking permission to steal and murder etc.

[Zan]

Complete realism in a game is a silly thing to want, it's a game. If you want everything to be real allow everyone to make one character and when that character dies ... well you can go find another game. Then things are real and then everyone will think twice about fighting, stealing and murdering.

I think if the game leaves too much room to be evil that the balance, which I wanted to discuss in this topic not the ability to roleplay evil, will most definitely tip towards the bad guys. In the real world we can't be evil without repercussions ... so lets do it in Planeshift!

[Karyuu]

Janner, I think the game you may be looking for is called Life ;}

To my mind maximum realism does not mean watching what you say and asking permission to steal and murder etc.

Maximum realism is a goal. Just like player housing is a goal, and maps, and flying mounts, and Nolthrir cities. And what do you mean by "watching what you say"? Don't swear in an OOC manner, but what's wrong with anything else?

We are aiming for a fun time for all players. Feelings of characters can be hurt, but not players, because then someone is not having fun.

Are you too a person who is bothered by PlaneShift's current stage of development, after all your time of being here, Janner? People should be adjusted to it by now, and instead of complaining about all the things they -can't- do, find alternative ways of doing them in the meantime :] And there are ways. Whether you like them or not does not influence the fact that they can be done.

[zanzibar]

I think another really important point is that the characters are neither completely good or bad, if either at all.  Some of the most interesting and supportive characters I've met have been evil.  Some of the "good" characters I've met have been incredibly mean and wicked.  I think that if you want to judge a character, there are better criteria to look at.

[r.guppy]

Janner, I think the game you may be looking for is called Life ;}

To my mind maximum realism does not mean watching what you say and asking permission to steal and murder etc.

Maximum realism is a goal. Just like player housing is a goal, and maps, and flying mounts, and Nolthrir cities. And what do you mean by "watching what you say"? Don't swear in an OOC manner, but what's wrong with anything else?

We are aiming for a fun time for all players. Feelings of characters can be hurt, but not players, because then someone is not having fun.

Are you too a person who is bothered by PlaneShift's current stage of development, after all your time of being here, Janner? People should be adjusted to it by now, and instead of complaining about all the things they -can't- do, find alternative ways of doing them in the meantime :] And there are ways. Whether you like them or not does not influence the fact that they can be done.

 I have a life thank you.

 You very much have to be very careful what you say, when i left the game it was because i was upset at the way a player was behaving. as you know i sent you a PM, and complained to various times to a GM about his behavior. All to no avail. so i left and lost my guild and had to completely restart from scratch, this i have done, another example is i was having a heated discussion with a ex guild member in tells and to my surprise a GM spoke and said this is bordering on harassment, i later checked with a GM if a complaint had been put in against me , and guess what no complaint? So it is obvious to me that rules mean nothing to most and what the guide says is for the long and distant future.

 All that is behind me and no i am not complaining of the rate of development, I am pointing out that IF there were a bit more realism there would be a lot more scope for better evil play and by the way good as well.

 I  also would really like to have some examples as i am trying to play a Bad character at times and i really have no idea how to do it short of getting banned every time i try.

[zanzibar]

I have a life thank you.

I don't think anyone suggested that you don't have a life.

You very much have to be very careful what you say, when i left the game it was because i was upset at the way a player was behaving.

If you're so sensitive, then maybe you should do the responsible thing and leave before a problem developes?  I'm not sure what the issue is with what Karyuu or anyone else has said.

as you know i sent you a PM, and complained to various times to a GM about his behavior. All to no avail. so i left and lost my guild and had to completely restart from scratch, this i have done, another example is i was having a heated discussion with a ex guild member in tells and to my surprise a GM spoke and said this is bordering on harassment, i later checked with a GM if a complaint had been put in against me , and guess what no complaint? So it is obvious to me that rules mean nothing to most and what the guide says is for the long and distant future.

It sounds like in both of those cases, there's more than one side of the story to be aware of.  If the GMs thought that your complaints weren't valid, then there was probably a reason for it.  If a GM thought you were bordering on harassment, there was probably a reason for it.  In either case, I don't see what it has to do with this thread.

And it was your choice to dissolve your guild rather than appoint a new leader.  No one forced you to get rid of it.

All that is behind me and no i am not complaining of the rate of development, I am pointing out that IF there were a bit more realism there would be a lot more scope for better evil play and by the way good as well.

I would agree with that.  It's tough to keep things real yet still protect against griefing.

I  also would really like to have some examples as i am trying to play a Bad character at times and i really have no idea how to do it short of getting banned every time i try.

There are a number of threads on how to RP "evil" characters.  I agree with you that there needs to be more freedom in the game for such things, but the devs recognize that they have to be really careful in how they go about doing it.  I think that guildwars might be pretty much all we have in terms of mechanics - the rest is mostly chatting.

[Karyuu]

I wasn't suggesting that you don't have a life. No need to be so defensive, Janner :} No harm done.

I don't quite remember any PM from you concerning the behavior of one of your guild members - you could have sent it to someone else... But I too could be mistaken and if so I'm really sorry. But what does this have to do with roleplaying an evil character? /tells are completely OOC unless specifically marked as IC, first of all. There is a point where roleplaying may not be clear as such - but OOC arguments do not make for IC evil characters.. Your story is a little confusing in that regard.

This thread is not about IFs - it's about what is currently possible and how players are dealing with limitations or hiding them with their roleplay, which is very possible afterall. Some ideas have been offered here already, and I'm sure more will come.

[Pestilence]

Complete realism in a game is a silly thing to want, it's a game. If you want everything to be real allow everyone to make one character and when that character dies ... well you can go find another game. Then things are real and then everyone will think twice about fighting, stealing and murdering.

I think if the game leaves too much room to be evil that the balance, which I wanted to discuss in this topic not the ability to roleplay evil, will most definitely tip towards the bad guys. In the real world we can't be evil without repercussions ... so lets do it in Planeshift!

hmm Zan has a point ofcourse that realism is hard to get becuase people just don't act like they really would if they were really in that situation. We already had many threads about that death shouldn't mean the same in PS if you would really just walk out of the deathrealm. People are already killing themselves as a shortcut to avoid the Hydlaa-Akkaio route. Not very realistic to have suicides near Harnquist.

It's simply impossible to have the same consequences as in RL and so people will take advantage of things. For example in some games PvP is very widespread. At one point dueling was also very happening on the plaza. But would people really do that as much if the consequence might be real death when someone finds you out?

[Under the moon]

Simply put, you cannot RP an evil character with most folks. They do not wish to lost their money, their pride, or their life. Playing a good character is easy, because if you don't wish to RP with someone who is trying to be evil, you can just ignore them. You are still 'good'. Bad RP, but true.

However, if you are on the flip side, and try to RP an evil char and get ignored, guess what? You aren't evil. By being ignored, your character is reduced to nothing. It also does not help with the good always wins attitude. Playing an evil/bad character is a two sided thing. If it is only on your side, you are considered a spammer by those who are playing 'good' characters.

Now, I have a character I consider bad (not evil). He is a thief, and will steal from his own grandmother. He will lie and smile in your face in the nicest manner while cutting your purse. He is not a killer, however. In character description, I gave his looks and apparent attitude. I then went on to state in all CAPs  "THE FOLLOWING IS OUT OF CHARACTER. YOUR CHARACTER WILL NOT KNOW THIS" followed by my stating that he is a very good thief and has never yet been caught. I explained exactly how I wished to RP this character, and how to deal with him.

One of the first people I met was someone I considered a good RPer, and had never met with this character before. The first thing he did was eye me warily. The second was to tell his comrade to keep an eye on me, that I could not be trusted. I asked ooc why he would say that. My answer was that he had been around for over a thousand years and saw me a few times before, noticing things vanishing after I left. My session of RP ended right there.

In conclusion, you are only as evil as others let you be. Good characters can rely on game mechanics, bad characters have to rely on other people.

[zanzibar]

Good characters don't even have to rely on game mechanics.  As long as you hate people who are supposedly evil, you get counted as good.

[Zan]

Exactly Zanz! Good and bad are only seen relative to eachother, the good ones hate the bad guys and the bad people want to do nothing more than pester the good guys. They are alignments, not always character traits.

By the way UtM I think it is possible to play an evil character without having to count on people's ooc co-operation. It's not as easy, especially not for a thief, but it can be done. I have a sarcastic axe smith who simply takes what he wants from people around Hydlaa. I pick everything that's lying on the ground and I wouldn't mind having up with that character without asking if someone dropped something and he'll take spawns whenever he feels like it and doesn't always feel the need to share them. Last time he interrupted a party by bursting in, helping himself to some food and drinks and leaving again a bit later .. without knowing anyone there or knowing what the party was for. So far I haven't had to ask another character's permission to do anything yet.

This is a rather recent experiment though so I'll have to see how it turns out.

[zanzibar]

Exactly Zanz! Good and bad are only seen relative to eachother, the good ones hate the bad guys and the bad people want to do nothing more than pester the good guys. They are alignments, not always character traits.

Actually, a lot of the evil characters I know don't care about pestering anyone.  Many of them would rather they weren't noticed at all, it would make their work easier.