The grand balance of good vs evil

[beau]

my character just looks evil, but he is a nice, well spoken fellow, who also RPs getting drunk at kada el. its just his evil looking ynnwn horns and that big black tribal tat on his face.

[Pestilence]

I pick everything that's lying on the ground ......... and he'll take spawns whenever he feels like it and doesn't always feel the need to share them.

Said this before Zan those in my opinion aren't IC actions. The picking up is making use of the gamemechanic that people can't hold you by the arm and take their item back and "taking spawns" is as OOC as it gets as it makes use of the gamemechanic that only one person can attack a monster at a time (exept for a formed group) and that people can't take loot of a monster you killed.

In real life neither would be possible in that way so would consider both a bad example of evil roleplaying, eventhough you might be forced to act that way to stay in character it shouldn't be the foundation of it.[/color]

[Zan]

While they are definitely only possible because of the way the game works, I wouldn't say that automatically makes them OOC. It sounds like we both have different definitions of out of character action, your definition being that things which are unrealistic to do in real life are out of character as well. Where I see my character living in a world with rules, not always like real life, that are created by the game and he will use those rules to do harm. If I had to compare my actions to real life, he'd be lifting up purses that are dangling in plain sight, picking up swords people left in the corner of the tavern or something they left on the table whenever they went to the bathroom ... Those are the things I see equivalent to picking up items off the ground and I'll always add some sort of text like that in while I pick them up. Nothing stops the people from trying to get it back, just because there is no direct way of getting the item back doesn't mean I'll just run off an ignore whatever they try.

The spawn taking I agree with since I see spawncamping as a whole as bad roleplaying but everyone does it and it's too popular to just ignore. 90% of the people on PS are spawncamping at most of the times I'm on so if you don't join in, and I haven't for extended periods if time, you're bound to get very lonely.

I do make both types of actions as roleplaying as possible though by expanding on them with text messages so I wouldn't say they are directly out of character per se.

Now it's easy to criticize but how about a better way then? Lets hear some good examples of evil roleplaying according to you, Pestilence

[sardit]

I think that the game allows for evil roleplay easy enough. Though there has been a lot of discussion about it the guild Dwarvesbane plays evil and everyone knows it. Even good guys participate. Their hate for the bad guy makes them stop and talk to you most of the time. All i need to do to get some evil roleplay is stand still near a few dwarves with my blades bare, Within minutes there are other players around getting involved, protecting the poor dwarves. Its gone so far that i can't actually stand still and have a normal conversation with a dwarf without this happening.

However, implementing options to murder / steal / etc would be nice. Right now you do have to rely on the cooperation of other players to be an evil character. And unfortunately not many players will give it. If you however want to play a murderer like my character then its easy enough. The better players will duel you more often then not. It's just the sneaking up behind someone and stabbing him in the back that isn't possible ( unless its a rigged rp event )

[Pestilence]

True Zan it can be used to roleplay. I think that is a good point. I think an evil person should be able to do those things and a good roleplayer I don't mind it either. Ofcourse that last part should always be added or someone will just use those actions without anything and claim to be roleplaying

I have been thinking about roleplaying evil a bit myself. My character Meriner isn't really dark although a bit darker then when I started playing him. he has his phases (playing for one year is bound to change how you play a character ) Tried things out with alts and been looking up evil people with Meriner to see how they do it. It's hard to find evil people that roleplay well and harder to find people who roleplay it so it's also fun for you

One way I have seen is playing the mugger. Threaten someone for money. It's easy and people will useally respond and it's a situation most people have wondered about how they would react. In my opinion actual dueling should be avoided as much as possible as that kinda ruins the roleplaying. Try using the /roll 20 command for example to see how good your hit was and how good he blocked it. Ofcourse you might want to compare skills in tell to see how much difference there is. Does require some cooperation but roleplaying in the end is a group thing not a solo thing

The dwarvesbane I don't know. It's not like I hate the against dwarf and think the racist card has been way overplayed, but don't really feel it fits in a PS setting whereall the same racegroups aren't that common.

[zanzibar]

Pretty much all "evil" behaviours - no matter how well-intentioned, IC, or legal - will eventually be interpreted by someone as griefing.  That is, until it's made into a full-fledge mechanic of the game.

[Robinmagus]

Amen brother.

[Pestilence]

Just becuase at some point gamemechanics may allow some stuff in the end it will still be your own behavior that will make people think it's done IC or OOC.

Not saying there aren't people who take offence to anything that bothers them, but those aren't a majority thankfully.

[Baston]

Hello,

As you ask, Zan, I will give my opinion. It's not original or new idea : I think it's very very very hard to play evil in-game.
I completly agree with all peoples who are arguing that without murder or steal function it's not possible to be evil.

Why ? Look at my character : Baston. I try to RP it as an evil character who is chaotic by nature but try to be lawfull for various reasons. I have wrote the young age of Baston, he have a very bloody past. I never post it for a simple reason : I can't play Baston's character as I should play it with this story.

A little anecdot : the other day I was wandering on the plaza with Essiri we wanted to fight, just kill for the pleasure of killing (yes evils do that, I'm thinking Baston a bit like the Harkonnen family in Dune : violent and nasty). But I and my character gain no satisfaction killing the weaks for sport so I was searching for characters I know (potential strong fighter). 'till I never look at peoples' description, I couldn't tell what peoples around level was. I finally met Asalya and Illori, and like a could super-evil I asked politely "please miladies will you fight with me ?" the answer was "no". End of the story : the super-evil killer is nice as a sheep... *ironical smiles*

My character have many non-visible activities, but the visible part of his character is to be a killer... In Infidel Slayers their is "Slayers"... Our guild is not designed to slay cucumbers or trees...
He don't care about the laws because the only usefull laws are his owns, if he wants to kill someone he will try.. but no, because the oponent will decline the challenge.

I think you can be evil like somes are : doing nothing but manipulations and complots. That's only a part of evils RP like said UtM :

Simply put, you cannot RP an evil character with most folks. They do not wish to lost their money, their pride, or their life. Playing a good character is easy, because if you don't wish to RP with someone who is trying to be evil, you can just ignore them. You are still 'good'. Bad RP, but true.

However, if you are on the flip side, and try to RP an evil char and get ignored, guess what? You aren't evil. By being ignored, your character is reduced to nothing. It also does not help with the good always wins attitude. Playing an evil/bad character is a two sided thing. If it is only on your side, you are considered a spammer by those who are playing 'good' characters.

Playing evil is hard in fact mainly because "goods" player wants to have an evil char around just when they need to kick a bad guy, otherwise most of them just ignore evils char. I think we could have a "joker" system, wich allow us to free PvP someone and this joker could be used only 3 times a day... Just to make everybody remember than evils are not NPCs

In brief, if I look to the evils definitions of evil I saw before I agree : you can play evil. If I take the D&D definition, like Xordan said, it's just not possible. Stealing food at weddings is not the kind of "evilness" I want for my character...
Insulting someone means you have an interest in insulting him... All evils are not ruffian.. I'm fond of Dracula, that is a true evil : a gentleman killer.
Evil is not only about PvP, steal and back-stab but without it a lot of things are lacking to evil's characters. It's just so frustrating to be forced to stand like an idiot because someone have ignored you... UtM is so true when he said "However, if you are on the flip side, and try to RP an evil char and get ignored, guess what? You aren't evil. By being ignored, your character is reduced to nothing."

Trying to play an evil character since I'm ingame, I think it's just not possible. You can try to looks evil but you can't be evil.
But, of course, the fault is maybe on my side not being able to be a good roleplayer. But not having any alt I concentrate all my eforts on this one... And thinking it's a mess is a little disappointing.
I surely don't think I am perfect ... at least when talking about my RP

[Zan]

I understand the problem ... there is one 'solution' I can think of which would work with the current game mechanics, theoretically speaking. Although I'm not sure if it'd work in practice or if it has been done before.

My solution is guild wars. Take the game mechanic out of it's narrowminded War context and instead apply it to strongly alligned combat oriented guilds. If you have a big evil guild and a big good guild, both good roleplaying guilds and both have a large variety of warriors, then why not let those guilds be in a constant state of 'war' with eachother? This will eliminate the need to challenge and does mean one can't escape a fight in any way besides running like hell. Of course it shouldn't be seen as an actual war where both parties would automatically massacre eachother on sight, instead the whole could be used for roleplaying in a more PvP suited environment.

Upside is having a lot more freedom to roleplay, not only for the evil but also for the good/lawful characters, who could actually punish those who break the law.

Downside is that things could seriously get out of hand and players would be in a constant state of war, which is not the intention. Just because it is possible to kill everyone it doesn't mean it should happen. The only way to keep things under control is to have two guilds with many good roleplayers and a very good communication between the guilds and the members.

I'd offer my own guild as the lawful side of this idea but I don't nearly have enough members to make it work sadly.

[Pestilence]

Hhhmm that sounds like a lot of fun Zan

Thats the kind of idea that I would actually like to level up for

Although atm killing is to easy with it only taking one hit. Hope they'll improve armor and such so the art of dueling returns

[zanzibar]

Zan:  "Good" and "Evil" don't cover all possible motivations etc.  There are good characters that won't get along, and evil character that will never work together under any circumstances.  It's not a black and white roleplaying atmosphere, and I think it's a good thing.

Baston:  Good post, but to be frank - tiptoeing around people's emotions takes a lot of energy.  What if you don't want to RP someone who's evil but super polite all the time?  And still, you're going to end up with people like UTM who roleplayed Hauntt/Untar and almost immediately went OOC in game, on IRC, and on the forums just because he percieved the possibility of someone being disruptive.

I think that there are underlining issues to this discussion which we would need to go into in order for us to be comprehensive, but there simply isn't the time.  Fundamentally - people will not be able to roleplay evil well until the game mechanics are there to support it.

[Pestilence]

*shrugs*

I don't think it as being impossible. True being evil without stepping on to many toes needs to be done as a group action, but you seem to forget roleplaying useally should be a groupaction. Playing a loner evil person doesn't mean you have to be a loner as a player.

If you don't want to put the effort in as a player then yes it is impossible and yes it is way harder to play evil then it is to play good, but that simply the way it is. In RL people also go with the flow in a majority of the time.

I can't think of any civilization where anyone could just go and beat anyone else up and it not having consequences. In PS they may differ from in RL but to often evil "roleplaying"is just an exuse for a venting player so it has gotten a bad name.

[Zan]

What's up with those negative vibes, Zanzi ... think positive man!

Good and evil are alignments, not character traits ... they are simplifications and generalisations meant to avoid endless discussion and explanation of your character's elaborate personality and goals. The game is indeed not so black and white but lets just stick to good and evil for the sake of less drawn out communication in this discussion. No need to dwell off on every individual direction here.

As for waiting on the game mechanics, be my guest. I won't. I respect the Devs and the loads of work they put into this game in their free time and I am confident that there will be some very nice mechanics that allow easier roleplay of evil, however I'm an impatient one and I like to take initiative. Just because they haven't made it easy for us yet doesn't mean I can't figure out ways to make it doable. You shouldn't underestimate the position that players have within the game mechanics, especially in a project like this. We help shape the world, not to say that we are the Planeshift world.

I made this thread to give a positive contribution to the good-evil relationship and the roleplaying around it, where people can share how they do it and brainstorm over ideas how it could be done or how some problems could be fixed ... so no more saying "it can't be done." without giving your contribution to what can be done ...  or I'll have my evil character haunt you until the day that clackers fly!

[sardit]

Nice point there Pestilence, though i can't quite see how you want to create a society with all people acting good. You seem to forget that a fantasy setting is not at all like our society, it grounds in medeviel times. Times where people thought others to be witches and burned them. Time where leperds were kicked out and forced to live in desolated comunities. Times where "living the rogue" was by far mor common a way to make a living then you seem to accept. Times where christians went on crusades against the mores for being heathens. A time where a king had absolute power over life. A time where the landlord could pick out any girl he liked from his liegemen and have his way with her without having to face difficulties. A time where it was even custom in some part that the landlord would take the bride away from the groom just after the marriage to "bless" it so to say. A time where the only law was the landlord. And a time where the strong always ruled the weaker, in fact a time where you COULD go about and beat someone up without it having to much consequence, you only needed to be strong enough to make the rest fear you.

So there is my point, back in those days there wasn't much civilisation around, you only need to take a closer look at western hystory to see we have evolved from just the civilisation that you have trouble to imagine.

Wich does of course not diminish your point of a lot of so called evil players just being brats that want to vent a little. But then? Just what other reason is there to play any game?