The grand balance of good vs evil

[zanzibar]

*shrugs*

I don't think it as being impossible. True being evil without stepping on to many toes needs to be done as a group action, but you seem to forget roleplaying useally should be a groupaction. Playing a loner evil person doesn't mean you have to be a loner as a player.

*slaps forehead* Now you tell me!

You can't be in a group with the entire PS community.  I wander around, I talk to people, I stay in character with people I've never met before.  To me, it's a big part of the game - to expose yourself to new things, new characters, and new situations.

I can't think of any civilization where anyone could just go and beat anyone else up and it not having consequences. In PS they may differ from in RL but to often evil "roleplaying"is just an exuse for a venting player so it has gotten a bad name.

I can think of many times in life where I've known someone to beat someone else up without any trouble with the law.  Even when police get involved, the police have a tendency to arrest as few people as possible so that it looks like there's less crime in their area.

[Gesene]

Nice thread

Playing evil generally isn't my thing, but I think if I were trying to do this in Planeshift I'd work the fact that dead men and women (and Kran ) can and do tell tales here, due to the Death Realm not being a permanent state. Evil is doing what you can get away with, not being stupid. Homicidal maniacs generally don't last long in any society unless they are good at covering their tracks Perhaps it can be rationalised that yon city guards are *very* efficient?

I've seen some nice evil RP in the game, including someone insulting and challenging someone they must have known they couldn't beat. That was fun to get involved in, even only peripherally.

I'm not personally that attracted by the PvP side, so from a layperson's perspective the virtual good and evil guilds seems like a good idea to separate out those that are interested in this kind of interaction from those that aren't. Personally, I don't mind someone coming and trying to mug me (for example), provided it's well roleplayed out. I will make them RP their butt off for my horrible stinky newbie rat hides though

As for an OOC aside to say it's just RP, that's just good manners to me. Why risk upsetting people OOC when you don't have to?

[zanzibar]

I've seen some nice evil RP in the game, including someone insulting and challenging someone they must have known they couldn't beat. That was fun to get involved in, even only peripherally.

I once attacked someone 20 times in a row, back when I was new, just to show that I don't give up easily.

As for an OOC aside to say it's just RP, that's just good manners to me. Why risk upsetting people OOC when you don't have to?

Meh.  I find that people who RP "good" characters are far more prone to OOC harassment than any of the players with evil characters as their main.  What it comes down to is common sense and decency.

[Gesene]

(Quote from Zanzibar - if that's wrong, apologies. I'm being forum challenged)

Meh.  I find that people who RP "good" characters are far more prone to OOC harassment than any of the players with evil characters as their main.  What it comes down to is common sense and decency.

Personally, I've found players in Planeshift lovely so far. I do agree a modicum of common sense is needed - I mean, if a player has RPed with that particular character (or know the character is RPed by a player who knows your character) X million times before, then if they're being a git IC it probably doesn't need an OOC explanation. But if they're RPing with a character who is more of an unknown factor, I don't think it hurts to make it clear any gitty behaviour is IC. And that's true regardless of what "alignment" they're playing, IMHO. (i don't like alignments but that's a rant for another time)

I guess one way round it if players don't want to be bothered by doing tells is to have a little OOC disclaimer in the description (and indeed putting some effort into the description - I saw a fab evil old hag lady dwarf description in game the other day, and it really helped the way I interacted with that character). But in my mind, if players are wanting to engage with another character in RP to enhance their enjoyment of the game, and therefore want them to put time and effort into enhancing their experience, a little aside to check the other players are cool and not upset OOC isn't too much to ask. Certainly it's what I'd do if tabletopping or LARPing, and while this is the first MMORPG I've played I haven't seen that the RP conventions are that different here so far.

[Pestilence]

Nice point there Pestilence, though i can't quite see how you want to create a society with all people acting good. You seem to forget that a fantasy setting is not at all like our society, it grounds in medeviel times. Times where people thought others to be witches and burned them. Time where leperds were kicked out and forced to live in desolated comunities. Times where "living the rogue" was by far mor common a way to make a living then you seem to accept. Times where christians went on crusades against the mores for being heathens. A time where a king had absolute power over life. A time where the landlord could pick out any girl he liked from his liegemen and have his way with her without having to face difficulties. A time where it was even custom in some part that the landlord would take the bride away from the groom just after the marriage to "bless" it so to say. A time where the only law was the landlord. And a time where the strong always ruled the weaker, in fact a time where you COULD go about and beat someone up without it having to much consequence, you only needed to be strong enough to make the rest fear you.

So there is my point, back in those days there wasn't much civilisation around, you only need to take a closer look at western hystory to see we have evolved from just the civilisation that you have trouble to imagine.

Wich does of course not diminish your point of a lot of so called evil players just being brats that want to vent a little. But then? Just what other reason is there to play any game?

I am sorry but I don't agree with that. True Yliakum is a place were technolagy is still in the setting of late medieval times, but if you think of things like the octarchs it's clear socially it's not the same. It's more like with the roman empire would have been like exept the rulers don't seem to be conquerers what would make violence even less common.

And even in the medieval times an evil loner would never have that power. As your examples given those are lords that have the backing of a small army and probably even the church that predicts that the peasants will be rewarded if they just accept things as they are. So to turn that to PS terms that would mean you would have to be the leader of a large and active guild. Burning of witches and throwing out of leppars was a community thing so also that wasn't a loner thing. Being the rogue was perhaps more lonery but even then you would have to be in a group if you wanted to survive for long and I doubt they would scream out their ocupation when visiting a city.

I can think of many times in life where I've known someone to beat someone else up without any trouble with the law.  Even when police get involved, the police have a tendency to arrest as few people as possible so that it looks like there's less crime in their area.

If it's just a few bruises the police might not arrest anyone but as soon as broken bones and such are a factor I doubt any police wouldn't take the people in question to the station. I have even seen the police take someone in who threw a brick through someones window for example. IN PS there are plenty of evil characters who do way worse expecting the guards to not even come and break it up if they are standing two feet away. Thats not very realistic even if the guards wouldn't throw him in jail.

[sardit]

How good are you in Roman empire history? You are aware that slavery was a very common concept then. Even failure to pay a bill would result in you becomming a slave to the one you owned money to. Add the Gladiator games to that. Games where people killed other people for the amusement of the crowds. Or had to fight lions, snakes and other dangerous animals unarmed for that same crowd. A culture where the raised or dropped thumb of the empire decided life. And also a culture with a lot more violence on the streets. Most poor people had a patron "protecting" them. They would get money from that guy, and protection against robbers and the like in return for loyalty. ( votes for senate positions, carying stuff for the guy, cleaning his house, simply just being there for him when he needed you ) Have you ever seen the movies "The Godfather"? the maffia came up with that concept based upon the patron thing the romans had going. ( not strange as the roman culture originated from the same region as the maffia has its roots in. ) Hardly a crime free and non violent community that...

[zanzibar]

I can think of many times in life where I've known someone to beat someone else up without any trouble with the law.  Even when police get involved, the police have a tendency to arrest as few people as possible so that it looks like there's less crime in their area.

If it's just a few bruises the police might not arrest anyone but as soon as broken bones and such are a factor I doubt any police wouldn't take the people in question to the station. I have even seen the police take someone in who threw a brick through someones window for example. IN PS there are plenty of evil characters who do way worse expecting the guards to not even come and break it up if they are standing two feet away. Thats not very realistic even if the guards wouldn't throw him in jail.

Yeah, well if a girl being thrown onto the hood of a car and being hit in the stomach with a baseball bat doesn't count... a brick through a window is property damage, which means people over 30 or a small business being affected, so it's different.

[Pestilence]

*laughs*

You do have to read my posts if you want to comment on them Sardit

I didn't say Roman culture was a good example of a non-violent civilization. I only pointed out you would atleast have to look at a more civilized time like with the romans for example instead of a medieval time and that therefor the medieval arguments don't stick. That doesn't mean that the roman culture does stick becuase romans were known for their military domination and hence violence and the feeling they were above others.

But again the examples you give are things like gladiator games wich are community driven (and the fights were only to the death on grand events and those were criminals who tried to get out of heir sentence that way useally or ofcourse captured enemy warriors so not just anyone) and senators who are the ones who have power and have position and so they aren't just anyone either. You have to have a lot of power before you can do such things or atleast the backing of someone who has.

But you also forget to mention that in the roman empire the punishment for criminals was also severe. If you were caught stealing or if you killed someone you would lose one of your hands or would be thrown for the lions.

As for Zanzibar. Get a life. Again you come with some strange example without telling anything about it trying to kill the discusion. This is a place to have a discusion for the sake of Planeshift not to try and "score" by silencing the other no matter if you are right or not. Come with some arguments and examples that we can discus.

[zanzibar]

As for Zanzibar. Get a life. Again you come with some strange example without telling anything about it trying to kill the discusion. This is a place to have a discusion for the sake of Planeshift not to try and "score" by silencing the other no matter if you are right or not. Come with some arguments and examples that we can discus.

Trying to kill the discussion? Get a life?  Why don't you take a chill pill, genius?  [removed by admins for bad language.] I'm not trying to silence ANYTHING.  I'm PROVING that something else I said is TRUE.  [removed by admins for bad language.]

[Pestilence]

A. The police came and stopped it so there is a concequence. A consequence doesn't have to be jail right away. Plus I would think that the persons who did that would still have to appear in court and then be sentenced.

B. You didn't give any details and that is a habit of yours. You don't put it in any context so someone else has no idea what you are talking about so he can't respond. I have also seen you do this in other threads and very often later in the thread you add the details only to disproof a person who tries to repond with the little info you gave. If this happened once or twice it wouln't be a problem but as I said it seems to be a habit and then yes I feel it's becoming an intentional way to win or atleast get an unfair advantage in a discusion and it normally does no good at all for the discusions quality.

[zanzibar]

A. The police came and stopped it so there is a concequence. A consequence doesn't have to be jail right away. Plus I would think that the persons who did that would still have to appear in court and then be sentenced.

B. You didn't give any details and that is a habit of yours. You don't put it in any context so someone else has no idea what you are talking about so he can't respond. I have also seen you do this in other threads and very often later in the thread you add the details only to disproof a person who tries to repond with the little info you gave. If this happened once or twice it wouln't be a problem but as I said it seems to be a habit and then yes I feel it's becoming an intentional way to win or atleast get an unfair advantage in a discusion and it normally does no good at all for the discusions quality.

It was in context, all you had to do was look at what I was replying to.  This is so typical of you.  What, you think that if you repeat a lie enough times it will suddenly be true?

[acraig]

Please be civil or I will be forced to lock this thread.

[sardit]

*laughs*

You do have to read my posts if you want to comment on them Sardit

I didn't say Roman culture was a good example of a non-violent civilization. I only pointed out you would atleast have to look at a more civilized time like with the romans for example instead of a medieval time and that therefor the medieval arguments don't stick. That doesn't mean that the roman culture does stick becuase romans were known for their military domination and hence violence and the feeling they were above others.

Missed that detail, you're right

But again the examples you give are things like gladiator games wich are community driven (and the fights were only to the death on grand events and those were criminals who tried to get out of heir sentence that way useally or ofcourse captured enemy warriors so not just anyone) and senators who are the ones who have power and have position and so they aren't just anyone either. You have to have a lot of power before you can do such things or atleast the backing of someone who has.

I don't quite agree on this point, The events portraited were community driven in a way, but you neglect to regard that these events were forced upon the community. Also, slaves were very commonly used as gladiators, and unlike you say these games were always to the death. It was forbidden to the gladiator to kill in most games, but after it was finished the emperor would give a verdict ( Ceasar's raised or dropped thumb )

But you also forget to mention that in the roman empire the punishment for criminals was also severe. If you were caught stealing or if you killed someone you would lose one of your hands or would be thrown for the lions.

Wich is true, but death was not among them. Maiming, branding and put into slavery ( agreed going to the salt mines was a certain death aswell, and you could also be sent to the arena { thrown in front of the lions } but in all cases you had a fighting chance, slim but a chance. )

Hence my point, evil was around in similar forms as it is in planeshift. There is no mechanic to beat someone up on the plazaa. So that won't happen. But a duel can be fought there as it happened in those times. You could stumble across a duel in plenty of civilisations. So back to the topic, since some people in planeshift refuse to accept certain aspects as being "real" it is far harder to play a villain ( lacking game mechanics to use ) then it could be. To repeat underthemoons statement. If you are playing evil and are being ignored, you are reduced to nothing. That behaviour from the good guys should stop. At least try to do some rp with evil persons. give a /shout for help for all i care but do give a reaction instead of consequentely ignoring everybody that might be evil. Its just as unrealistik to say to a guy you know to be evil " I don't want to talk to you, take your attitude and shoo !" Especially if you are so weak i'd kill you in one stroke using training daggers. Unfortunately since there is no PvP in Planeshift people CAN react like that, and to my regret a lot of players do that.

[Pestilence]

Well I do agree things like beating up should be possible and at the moment RP wise it would be possible in my opinion. Although ofcourse I would have to believe the character in question had the skill to do that

But I do feel that an evil person who RPs would have to do this with things like the guards in mind and how plosible you would be able to do this without interferance. I have had someone mutible times try to start a fight while at the gate with guards just a few feet away. I think noone disagrees that evil should be possible it's only that the problem with putting it in gamemechanics is that it will cause OOC misuse more then that it will add to the RP unless you have a good way to prevent that and thats the tricky part

As for the duels. Duels in the arena were very often not to the death. You had profesional gladiators that were hero's where their blood and sweat were even sold of and those did not fight to the death unless in special events. Also the thumbs up or down is most likely a myth. The highest person there useally did give signal but historian are pretty sure it was probably a thumb to the throat to show one would die. A lot of the arena has been made worse in the movies so don't believe everything you see there

[zanzibar]

If you are playing evil and are being ignored, you are reduced to nothing.

That's true for good characters as well.  It's true for pretty much everyone.  To stay with Under the Moon as an example:  When he went in game as Haunt, one of the first things he did was make a point of walking through my character repeatedly in order to attract attention.  Attention is not only important for evil characters.