Author Topic: The grand balance of good vs evil  (Read 14179 times)

Karyuu

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #135 on: June 06, 2006, 09:31:49 am »
I'm not ignoring your point, Janner. I just don't think that I have to respond to every point everyone makes, especially if I understand/agree with the basic gist of it.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

Hatchnet

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #136 on: June 06, 2006, 10:14:08 am »
That is of course your opinion, and while I will agree that that particular persons reason for hateing dwarves is a bit overboard givin what the setting says, you may want to reread the entire setting. Includeing the race descriptions.

O and the bigest reason I say that the setting is not set in stone is not individuality (though that is a big one), but that all things change over time.


It really seems like you're reaching here.

The devs have told us to respect the settings.  So why shouldn't we respect the settings?  Because we don't feel like it?

I have never said not to respect the settings Zanzibar. That is you attemting to put words in my mouth in order to support your own argument. (And before you say I'm just saying that to discredit you I have actualy posted several times that we must respect the settings)

Part of the problem with your argument, Zanzibar, is that you uphold a part of the setting never intended as anything more than general as being the be all and end all of all of Yliakum. You do this despite the fact that other areas of the settings which affect things on a much more personal level show this to be otherwise and to in truth only to be a generality.

Janner

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #137 on: June 06, 2006, 10:18:43 am »
I'm not ignoring your point, Janner. I just don't think that I have to respond to every point everyone makes, especially if I understand/agree with the basic gist of it.

 Thank you and Sorry.
Glad to help.

zanzibar

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #138 on: June 06, 2006, 04:55:00 pm »
I have never said not to respect the settings Zanzibar. That is you attemting to put words in my mouth in order to support your own argument. (And before you say I'm just saying that to discredit you I have actualy posted several times that we must respect the settings)


"You know we've already moved well away from what the main site history says. Besides interatial conflicts are the kinds of things that can start from one person haveing a distaste for dwarves, an enki holding all humans responsible for the ones/s that raped it's mother, or an elf feeling that the diaboli should be destroyed because they are the "spawn of the devil". Realy all natural things for certain types of people."

"What are the settings Zanzibar? Just because they say that there is no record of inter racial conflict does not mean that it has not, or can not happen. As I said sometimes certain people will have an experiance that causes them to dislike or have an affinity for someone of another race. That, belive it or not, is how racial conflicts start."

"Nor should you. However in a game with both feline Enikidkai and Humans you can easily play a character that thinks it's disgusting that Enkidukai shed all over the place. You would even be able to pass this dislike on to others (IC) and create a ratial tension between Enkidukai and Humans."

"Zanzibar the settings are a guide not the world."

"I'm saying that the setting is a guide nothing more. If you limit yourself to exactly what it says you will be severly limiting your own ability to roleplay not to mention seting yourself up for conflicts of interpitation."

"I never said it was just a bunch of suggestions; I said it was a guide. It says what things should be what the general populace belives the world to be not what that world truely is. Also just because you don't feel it's limitimg does not give you the right to force it's limitations on others. You may have no interest in playing a character that stands out from the norm; I on the other hand have no interest in playing a charecter that conforms to the norm. In short Zanzibar the setting is not the world; it is a guide to the world. WE are the world."

"Besides I never said that I didn't accept the setting, or that I was trying to change the game. Only that nothing you put in the setting can 100% reflect the reality of the world."

"The Devs have every right to make the world unrealistic. Just not when they are trying to make "A realistic world"."

"Zanzibar you seem to see the Setting as an absolute set in stone. It is not and can never be so. Further more just as you claim others are useing the fact that it is a guid and nothing more as an excuse to Rp however they want. You are useing your claim that it is absolute to justify your attempts to tell others how to play."

"O and the bigest reason I say that the setting is not set in stone is not individuality (though that is a big one), but that all things change over time."


Hatchnet, to me it seems pretty clear that you think that the settings are not rules so much as they are suggestions.  You use different words, and you deny that you think they're merely suggestions, but functionally there's no difference between them being suggestions and how you see them.  You see them as rules that can be bent, broken, changed for convenience or creativity or intuition, or ignored completely.  That means that you see them as suggestions.



Part of the problem with your argument, Zanzibar, is that you uphold a part of the setting never intended as anything more than general as being the be all and end all of all of Yliakum. You do this despite the fact that other areas of the settings which affect things on a much more personal level show this to be otherwise and to in truth only to be a generality.

Which part?  This discussion has been pretty general.

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Hatchnet

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #139 on: June 07, 2006, 12:59:47 am »
Zanzibar reread all those posts, then go back and reread the ones you left out for the sake of your argument, and then go back and reread the entire setting includeing the race descriptions. O and while your doing this try to keep in mind the actual meanings of words and not what you want them to mean.

zanzibar

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #140 on: June 07, 2006, 01:11:17 am »
Zanzibar reread all those posts, then go back and reread the ones you left out for the sake of your argument, and then go back and reread the entire setting includeing the race descriptions. O and while your doing this try to keep in mind the actual meanings of words and not what you want them to mean.


You're right in saying that I left out the ones which weren't relevant to the point I was trying to make.  I didn't see what the point would be to repeating them if they weren't relevant.

You're saying that the guide is malleable, that it's not set in stone, that some parts of it only count some of the time, and that the initiative and intuition of us players takes precedence.  Am I right?
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Hatchnet

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #141 on: June 07, 2006, 01:16:52 am »
Your only partialy right Zanzibar, but only because you try to manipulate things ti serve your own purpose. If you had truely reread everything as I asked not only would you have seen where in several places I have said that "we must respect the settings" you would also see were there are places in the settings that prove your arguments wrong.

zanzibar

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #142 on: June 07, 2006, 01:29:51 am »
Your only partialy right Zanzibar, but only because you try to manipulate things ti serve your own purpose. If you had truely reread everything as I asked not only would you have seen where in several places I have said that "we must respect the settings" you would also see were there are places in the settings that prove your arguments wrong.


If I'm wrong about something, then just say how I'm wrong.  All this mud slinging you do is just an unnecessary distraction.
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Hatchnet

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #143 on: June 07, 2006, 01:32:17 am »
I have said so many times yet you have chosen to ignore it. Also it is not mudslinging when it is the truth.

Yet let us change things up abit: Do you belive it is against the settings for a person playing a stonebreaker dwarf to role play as if they are compleatly distrustful of the taller races.

zanzibar

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #144 on: June 07, 2006, 03:31:14 am »
I have said so many times yet you have chosen to ignore it. Also it is not mudslinging when it is the truth.

Yet let us change things up abit: Do you belive it is against the settings for a person playing a stonebreaker dwarf to role play as if they are compleatly distrustful of the taller races.


You're right.  That is a change of subject.


Whether or not a particular character is acting within the settings is a different issue than whether or not characters should act within the settings.
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Pestilence

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #145 on: June 07, 2006, 07:00:45 am »
Hatchnet I've read Zanzibars last posts and I know he can get under your skin sometimes as he and I have had our disagreements many times aswell ;)

But her I think he is being civil and the point he is adressing isn't delibaretly trying to push you in a corner that you aren't really in. You yourself have said as the many quotes show that you feel that you feel the guide is a guide and not set in stone and that things can be changed. That is the same as calling them suggestions I would say. You do say you think the setting should be respected, but if I read your post you feel the setting should be respected as a guide and not respected in the way as Zanzibar or I claim you should respect the settings.

That is of course your opinion, and while I will agree that that particular persons reason for hateing dwarves is a bit overboard givin what the setting says, you may want to reread the entire setting. Includeing the race descriptions.

O and the bigest reason I say that the setting is not set in stone is not individuality (though that is a big one), but that all things change over time.

I have already mentioned that contraditing setting (and race descriptions I think are kinda iffy as far as setting goes as they are often forgotten in updates) isn't a good exuse to ignore the setting. We are testing the setting and as more information becomes availeble it will be harder and harder to make it all fit. And it is our job as testers to report that these things contradict and then have the devs (and that means not you and me) decide what needs to be changed.

If the devs refuse to change it well then you might have a point that it's a reason to ignore part of the setting, but till that time it's just nitpicking that everything isn't eperfect and using that as an exuse to do what you want instead of what you think the settiing is ment to say.

zanzibar

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #146 on: June 07, 2006, 07:23:26 am »
Thankyou, Pestilence.
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Hatchnet

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #147 on: June 08, 2006, 07:03:19 am »
I have said so many times yet you have chosen to ignore it. Also it is not mudslinging when it is the truth.

Yet let us change things up abit: Do you belive it is against the settings for a person playing a stonebreaker dwarf to role play as if they are compleatly distrustful of the taller races.


You're right.  That is a change of subject.


Whether or not a particular character is acting within the settings is a different issue than whether or not characters should act within the settings.

Actualy it is not a change of subgect; it is a change of aproach. So answer the question.

Pestilence your right contradicting setteings and race descriptions are iffy, however you do realise that a general setting is the same as a general description right? Just because racial tension is unknown in the general populace does not mean it does not happen. Lets take the Dwarvesbane guild as an example: they are in reality such a small part of Yliakum that they probably would not even get noticed in the grand sceam of things.

Something else the both of you might want to take into account is that I have never, not once said that it was alright to act as if there was a large group or movement against a particular race, but that such things while they do occure would be rare and on an individual basis.

Or rather to put it in Zanzibar's words "a Stonebreaker Dwarf that is not suspicious of those who are taller than him would be outside the settings". Now please tell me I'm not the only one who sees who ludicruss that sounds.

O and Pestilence for the rest your way off the mark from what I was saying.

zanzibar

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #148 on: June 08, 2006, 07:11:42 am »
Actualy it is not a change of subgect; it is a change of aproach. So answer the question.


Don't be ridiculous.  Whether or not the settings need to be respected is different from whether or not a particular action violates the settings.  It's not a different approach, it's a completely different question.
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Immaturity is FTW.

Hatchnet

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Re: The grand balance of good vs evil
« Reply #149 on: June 08, 2006, 07:16:39 am »
Actualy it is not a change of subgect; it is a change of aproach. So answer the question.


Don't be ridiculous.  Whether or not the settings need to be respected is different from whether or not a particular action violates the settings.  It's not a different approach, it's a completely different question.

Your just trying to be semantical; the two in reality go hand in hand. I have never said not to respect the settings, nor have I have ever said that we should go and viloate the settings,I have however said that we can be individuals. Now please answer the question.