The grand balance of good vs evil

[zanzibar]

Actualy it is not a change of subgect; it is a change of aproach. So answer the question.

Don't be ridiculous.  Whether or not the settings need to be respected is different from whether or not a particular action violates the settings.  It's not a different approach, it's a completely different question.

Your just trying to be semantical; the two in reality go hand in hand. I have never said not to respect the settings, nor have I have ever said that we should go and viloate the settings,I have however said that we can be individuals. Now please answer the question.

They don't go hand in hand, and it isn't semantics.  They're different questions.


Should we stick to the settings? = What set (of actions) should we look at?
Is this dwarf sticking to the settings? = Is this action a part of the set?



Whether or not the dwarf is sticking to the settings is subjective.  We could take a position on that question and discuss or argue the point.  The bigger question - the one that counts - is whether or not the dwarf should stick to the settings.

[Pestilence]

O and Pestilence for the rest your way off the mark from what I was saying.

Please be a little more clear then that becuase I only said a few things about what I think you are saying and I believe each of the things I said have been directly taken from your own posts.

I also agree with Zanzibar that examples like that aren't the same discusion. I think his post shows the differerance quite clearly and anyhow discusing individual hypothetical cases will only cloud the subject.

[Hatchnet]

Here you are again ignoreing every thing I've been saying. If you don't want to answer the question then stop argueing about the whole thing because you have lost your credibility. You guys have twisted my words to suit your meanings and are trying to make it look like I have been saying things I have not.

The whole !@#$%^& crux of this argument was wether or not racism was agianst the settings. I say it is not (at least on a small scale) Zanzibar has been saying it is (through what has been shown to be an inacurate interpitation of the settings). Furthermore his entire argument has shown itself to nothing more than an attempt to force his interpitation on others.

Now let me refrase why the question is so important in a fashion that may be easyier for you to understand. I have never said or argued that we should not respect or that we should violate the settings. My entire argument has been about wether or not something violates the settings (yup you guys are the ones trying to change the subject). Through out this Zanzibar has maintained that anyform of Racisim is against the settings because of what the general setting says. Now no more being nice about it either answer the question or get lost because my argument has nothing to do with wether or not we should violate the settings as you guys are trying to makeit seem, but with what exactly violates the settings.

Pestilence if you truely belive the things you said were taken from my post then you will probably want to read them again. As I said you were way off the mark from what I was saying.

[Tzur]

This, of course, is by your standard of evil. 

Hurting people, stealing, senseless acts of destruction, malice towards others, violent intolerance... etcetera.  The definition of "evil" isn't something easily put into words.

I would hope that you're just trying to be cute by suggesting that the definition of evil is subjective.  It would be unfortunate if you were trying to insult me by saying that my definition of evil is deviant.

I assure you, it's not personal nor an insult - just an adult exchange of opinions. 

To me, it's like saying what is 'up' or 'down' while flying around space. It all depends on where you are and where/how you're looking at it. (and/or taking into consideration everyone else's views[popularity thing again])

Now, I think I've said about all I want to on this topic. I just came to say my opinion in hopes of offering a new perspective. I'll leave justifing who's 'right' and 'wrong' to those who believe they have a right to do so.

[Karyuu]

Racism is not the same thing as being distrustful, or slow to trust. By far not the same thing.

[zanzibar]

Here you are again ignoreing every thing I've been saying. If you don't want to answer the question then stop argueing about the whole thing because you have lost your credibility.

Naw.  You've lost your credibility by insisting on the question be answered despite it being a distraction.  Further, the example you gave isn't the same kind of racism as most people are talking about.  Being a bit paranoid is different from thinking that an entire race is no better than beasts of labour

Racism is not the same thing as being distrustful, or slow to trust. By far not the same thing.

Exactly.

[Hatchnet]

Racism is not the same thing as being distrustful, or slow to trust. By far not the same thing.

I have never said it was.

Zanzibar not all racism is the same. I know what I am talking about is racism on the individual level; it's what I've been talking about this whole time. Or haven't you been reading my posts?

If you think the question is nothing more than a distraction then why don't you answer it? I assure you that despite your beliefs otherwise it has a very pertinent point; in fact there was another to follow right after so just so maby things are a little bit clearer to you I'll go ahead and post it: Do you think that a Stonebreaker Dwarf who is not suspicious or distrustfull of those who are taller than him in anyway is outside of the settings?

Alright I'm going to go ahead and post a few more mettaphores to try and show you what I mean. Two are quite old another is one that came to me in part because of the posts on this thread. Now please try to make an actual effort to understand these instead of simply asumeing they mean what you want them to mean.

#1 There are a few bad apples in every bushel
#2 There are a few bad eggs in every bunch
#3 A cookie cutter in the shape of a star will produce an endless number of star cookies. A cookie cutter that is free of form will leave all the rough edges and imperfections of the dough while trimming off the excess.

I don't know about you but I don't want to be a star cookie.

[zanzibar]

If you think the question is nothing more than a distraction then why don't you answer it?

"Yet let us change things up abit: Do you belive it is against the settings for a person playing a stonebreaker dwarf to role play as if they are compleatly distrustful of the taller races."


If I answer and say that the dwarf is violating the settings, then we'll have a discussion where people might say I'm wrong because it isn't really racism, and someone might say that such an interpretation of the settings is extremely limiting to a degree not intended by the devs.

If I answer and say that the dwarf is not violating the settings, then someone might say that other forms of racism must therefore be permissible, including the Dwarvesbane RP.

Neither answer is truly correct, and not all the possible responses are truly appropriate.  What remains true is that in either case, we'll spend time and energy discussing the question and the answer to the question and we won't accomplish anything because it's a pointless question to ask because it doesn't begin to touch the fundamental issue of whether or not the settings are merely a guide that makes suggestions or alternatively a true settings which characters are supposed to be within.

[Hatchnet]

Neither answer is truly correct, and not all the possible responses are truly appropriate.  What remains true is that in either case, we'll spend time and energy discussing the question and the answer to the question and we won't accomplish anything because it's a pointless question to ask because it doesn't begin to touch the fundamental issue of whether or not the settings are merely a guide that makes suggestions or alternatively a true settings which characters are supposed to be within.

Or how about the settings are a guide that players are suppost to follow. Remember the cookie cutters? Try it this way: If you fill a clay or glass bowl with marbles of different size they will all roll around perfectly with one another, however if you were to fill a bowl made of jello with the marbles they would all press into the jello a little bit different dependeng their posistion within the bowl and size.

[zanzibar]

Neither answer is truly correct, and not all the possible responses are truly appropriate.  What remains true is that in either case, we'll spend time and energy discussing the question and the answer to the question and we won't accomplish anything because it's a pointless question to ask because it doesn't begin to touch the fundamental issue of whether or not the settings are merely a guide that makes suggestions or alternatively a true settings which characters are supposed to be within.

Or how about the settings are a guide that players are suppost to follow. Remember the cookie cutters? Try it this way: If you fill a clay or glass bowl with marbles of different size they will all roll around perfectly with one another, however if you were to fill a bowl made of jello with the marbles they would all press into the jello a little bit different dependeng their posistion within the bowl and size.

You've completely lost me.  So you're saying that your question wasn't relevant?

[Hatchnet]

No; thats not what I'm saying. You actualy had the point of the question with your last post, but you let it's meaning slip over your head.

[zanzibar]

No; thats not what I'm saying. You actualy had the point of the question with your last post, but you let it's meaning slip over your head.

In the post before that one, I said that the question was pointless and a distraction...

[Hatchnet]

No; thats not what I'm saying. You actualy had the point of the question with your last post, but you let it's meaning slip over your head.

In the post before that one, I said that the question was pointless and a distraction...

Neither answer is truly correct, and not all the possible responses are truly appropriate.

As I said you had the point but you let the meaning slip over your head.

[Pestilence]

OK you're complaining that we don't understand you but don't answer my question what I had wrong and now instead of arguments you are using mettaphores making the discusion even more vague?

#1 There are a few bad apples in every bushel
#2 There are a few bad eggs in every bunch
#3 A cookie cutter in the shape of a star will produce an endless number of star cookies. A cookie cutter that is free of form will leave all the rough edges and imperfections of the dough while trimming off the excess.

I don't know about you but I don't want to be a star cookie.

But to go into them:
1 and 2: yep there are a few bad ones, but they are still apples or eggs. It's not "you have a few pears in every bushel of apples". The setting is the basis. After that the choice is yours, but you can't chose everything. You can't chose to be a pear or a peach if the setting says there are only apples.
3. If the setting says only starcookies it's only starcookies and not a moonshaped one. If you don't like it go join a game where you can be a moonshapecookie
4. The jello annalogy is just to vague and sure whatever I make of it you'll tell me I misunderstood it so ignoring that one

Neither answer is truly correct, and not all the possible responses are truly appropriate.

To be answered by one person. It's not up to Zan what the setting are and where the lines are. Nor is it up to you or me. We might be able to explore and discus but in the end it's up to the devs and as zanzibar said it's a different discusion altogether where the lines are to IF we have to keep within them or not.

Setting: The context and environment in which a situation is set

[zanzibar]

No; thats not what I'm saying. You actualy had the point of the question with your last post, but you let it's meaning slip over your head.

In the post before that one, I said that the question was pointless and a distraction...

Neither answer is truly correct, and not all the possible responses are truly appropriate.

As I said you had the point but you let the meaning slip over your head.

I'm sorry if my tiny brain is incapable of comprehending all these big ideas you're throwing at us.  Maybe if you just said what you meant?