Author Topic: The DR (for RPers only)  (Read 6129 times)

Easton

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #15 on: June 16, 2006, 01:25:47 am »
As everyone has already stated, the DR is difficult to rp.

Now, i feel that i have a different way of RP'ing than most people. And while i throughly enjoy RP'ing, there are some things that i simp[ly cannot RP due to the fact that the game is Pre-Alpha officially. I know that if i left PS and came back in 3 years or so, it would be much different than it is now. Compared to how it used to be the DR is huge. But people who may not know the previous DR may find it still rather small. Now, since the game is Pre-alpha, i simply take the ooc approach to the DR. I have no RP explanation for it, or at least no explanation that i feel will last a long time. From what i percieve from some explanations about the future of 'dying', i think it is somewhat useless for me to rp something about the DR now, because soon(tm) enough its all going to change.

And anyone who wishes to compare Yliakum to the real world is missing the point. I feel that the game is supposed to be immersive, not neccissarily realistic in terms of the real world. If it was, we wouldn't have magic or imbued daggers, or tefusang, or enkidukai etc..

This is a fantasy game. Maybe there will be two types of death. One way in which the soul can return to the body, and another in which the soul is destroyed.

Basically: RPing the death realm is difficult, but many things are since the game is pre-alpha. When the game is more advanced, maybe we can have absolutely everything have a satisfying RP explanation, but while we are in the game's infancy, i think that we need to, as sad is it may be, settle for a hole in the RP.

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Easton Ghent
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Farren Kutter

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #16 on: June 16, 2006, 02:35:12 am »
I always explained it this way... All living beings have an inherent magic. This magic is passive, activating on it's own will. When someone is about to die, this magic transports the person's mind/soul and a replication of their body to the Death Realm, where they may travel out through the phenomenon of the portal back to the living realm.




Ralas

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #17 on: June 16, 2006, 03:53:53 am »
I'm glad that someone finally brought this up.  The manner in which many players RP the DR has bothered me for a long time.  ("Oh by the way, you'll never guess who I ran into in the death realm yesterday...")

Wtihout fear of lasting death, life is meaningless.  And playing an RPG in which life is meaningless is meaningless.

I do, however, agree that in a fantasy setting, it may, on an extremely rare occasion, be possible to come back.  For the most part, I think Seytra's explanation is feasable.  However, I would be extremely surprised if any of my characters ever manage to come back from death.  But the possibility does add some mysticism to the setting, which is always a good thing.

When killed by a monster, (which is something I try to avoid, as Ralas is not likely to take on something that he doesn't think he can defeat easily enough--he's not that courageous) I say I was knocked out and had weird dreams.  I used the same explanation one time when Kittik fell off of a roof.  When killed by a bug, obviously, the explanation is simply (I fell off the edge of the world :-/), or another suitable bug description, always OOC.  There is no IC explanation and there should be no IC inquiry as to what happened.

There are many things about the implementation of PS that need to be dealt with in a strictly OOC manner.  For the most part, the DR is one of those.  I did once have (what I considered to be) a very good RP session with Rilar in the DR...but there was a very well thought-out explanation, and Ralas was only dreaming.

EDIT: Typo
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 03:55:24 am by Ralas »
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Kerol

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #18 on: June 16, 2006, 05:43:34 am »
*grins and waves to Ralas and Seytra*

Good to see you around, Seytra ^^

I agree on that one. The DR is hard to RP as everyone has a different imagination of it. I had several occasions or "confrontations" with the DR in the past.

Of cource I /tell my RP partner(s) "oh crap, just fell off the world, brb" and not mentioning or including the "inconvience" at all in the RP when a bug or other OOC reasons got me in the DR, I strictly distinguish between IC and OOC reasons, whereas OOC reasons also are getting killed by a rogue (because i take the fighting system as OOC), PvP without RP background and things like that.

The first serious confrontation with death ingame was when Rilar got killed by Sefron's poison. At that time the RP explanation for his resurrection (back in his body) was because the gods thought that it wasn't time yet for Rilar to die, for whatever mysterious reason. So they sent his soul straight back and in the next night sent him a vision in a dream that could be seen as explanation by the gods.

The second time was Rilar's confrontation with Hagarath. A kind of ritual made it possible for Rilar and others to enter the DR as living subjects, with their bodies and inventory and so on. Hagarath had and has (afaik still ^^) the ability to "dissolve" souls, to make them die beyond death, "poof" them out of existance, so to say. A char getting killed by him would force the player to delete the char, if RPed correctly. I didn't really know this beforehand, maybe I'd have been more cautiously as I didn't really want to loose Rilar as char (and still wouldn't like him to get deleted). However, in the fight with Hagarath, he reached into Rilar and ripped the soul out of the body and was about to dissolve it, if the others wouldn't have stopped Hagarath in that very moment.
The result was a living body that got seperated from the major part of the soul. The fact that it happened in the DR made things complicated as my friends took Rilars body back into the world of the living. Because of that Rilars body was in a sort of coma for (IC and OOC) ~ two months while the soul explored the DR, tried to contact friends (for instance by occupying peoples dreams... sorry Ralas ;D) and met other dead souls and entities there.

My impression and way how to RP the DR is as following:
The DR is a "dimension" that exists out of the Y-reality (yliakum-reality). There are a few points were both realities touch.
I assume, coming from the settings Seytra posted, that the soul originates in the DR or another DR-like reality and is able to spawn into a body in the wotL.
If the body dies, the soul get drawn back from where they come (or have to go). There are few possibilities preventing the soul from getting drawn to the DR as there are few possibilities to get in the DR as living.
But if the body died in Y-reality, only the soul enters the DR, leaving back the inventory and body "as empty shell". A possibiilty to get back into the wotl is to find a point where both realities/phases/whatever touch. But that might be at random, if not conducted by god or mage powers. So you'd get ressurected at a random place in a random body, one could think.
This image of the DR leaves a lot of space for interesting RP, even as dead soul _in the DR_ and not being able to come back. However, it can be possible (as I was able to prove in a lot of very interesting sessions) to RP a soul in the DR, also being able to interact with the living, using special ways.
That's why I don't think deleting the char and ignoring the possibilty to actually use the DR as chance to RP things that aren't possible otherwise is what a good RPer should do. But there is an exception. As stated, there are RP ways to get "dissolved", killed in the DR. RPing such a plot, in which the soul gets destroyed surely adds spice. But nearly all RPers I know have a regular character which they wouldn't like to delete, out of sentimental feelings or whatever. In those cases I think it is a good advice to create a "disposable char", a char which isn't as fleshed out as the regular char, so it doesnt quite cost as much effort to see the char getting killed and deleted as it would be with the regular one.

According to my experience it is quite easy to RP the DR not as the DR but as something else. Like a dream, maybe, or the castle of a crazy warlock, the home of a demon, another planet or something completely different.
In those cases it's not advisable however, to include people in the RP without firm introduction. According to my experience its almost never advisable to include people in an RP that is happening in the DR if the people don't know exactly what is going on (that includes noobs as well as the best RPers, simply because everyone has a different imagination of what the DR is). Therefor RP in the DR almost always requires to be in /group and not in /say.


PS: there surely are typos and/or grammar faults, im too tired to get them corrected now.


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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #19 on: June 16, 2006, 12:27:30 pm »
maybe something needs to be written into the settings of ps about death realm, it would make the rp of dr much easier.

Although i try to avoid talking about death realm as it is as many has said, you can't die.
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Farren Kutter

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #20 on: June 16, 2006, 02:27:51 pm »
You can kill the enemy all you want. But in a good RP, they will not die, but will be defeated in some way ;-).




Anfa

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #21 on: June 16, 2006, 05:02:41 pm »

My impression and way how to RP the DR is as following:
The DR is a "dimension" that exists out of the Y-reality (yliakum-reality). There are a few points were both realities touch.
I assume, coming from the settings Seytra posted, that the soul originates in the DR or another DR-like reality and is able to spawn into a body in the wotL.
If the body dies, the soul get drawn back from where they come (or have to go). There are few possibilities preventing the soul from getting drawn to the DR as there are few possibilities to get in the DR as living.
But if the body died in Y-reality, only the soul enters the DR, leaving back the inventory and body "as empty shell". A possibiilty to get back into the wotl is to find a point where both realities/phases/whatever touch. But that might be at random, if not conducted by god or mage powers. So you'd get ressurected at a random place in a random body, one could think.

The problem with RPing that "only the soul enters the DR, leaving back the inventory and body "as emptly shell" is that the dev's have placed a Quest that has you "taking an item to the Death realm". I too am interested in how to work within the parameters set by the developers to rp this place known as DR. If it is only souls and not bodies and inventory, that are running around the DR than why would a quest have us going to the DR with our inventory intact? I would very much like to know how the Developers "see" the Death Realm to help all of us better understand the concept they were working for.

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Nikodemus

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #22 on: June 16, 2006, 11:14:59 pm »
or:

Char 1: (fights a rogue and is about to die)
Char 2: Can you please bring butter on your way back from the dead?
Currently, most of poeple believe that when you die, both your soul and body are moved there. It is what i was always against, because i remember the first official news about DR in CB. These news informed us that what is moved to the DR is the soul and only soul. While in CB we move to DR with all our inventory and escaping from the world of dead we appear always in the sae place, like entering and escaping we are simply teleported beatwen two dimensions. And now Anfa wrote about that quest. Maybe it is a mistake, or devs really want the DR to be the way how most people get it. If so, it all spoils the common idea about soul and death. The whole death idea is getting very innovative, about which we know almost nothing and everything is possible, while not always well thought. Fresh ideas have a lot more holes in its logic than the old ideas - thought long time ago and "patched" as some holes was found in the past. Maybe there is no soul if the whole body is moved to DR? because why would we need soul in PS if it was that way?
Given by all this, i have completly no idea how i should RP death and existance of my char in DR. That would spoil a lot my ingame experience if i wasn't a bit too bored and annoyed with such like these unlogical fact, that I wasn't online since long time now.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 11:25:16 pm by Nikodemus »



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Seytra

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #23 on: June 20, 2006, 11:24:07 pm »
The news item Nikodemus refers to would be in line with the quote about "when you get back, you get your stuff back" that once was on the site, which implies that it's not with you in the DR. It obviously is quite easy to imagine that something like this would very likely be not yet implemented, and indeed the easy way would have been chosen as preliminary solution: teleporting to a different map. Which, obviously, is precisely what is in PS ATM. Therefore it may indeed be the case that only soul travel is planned. However, that contradicts the notion of "a place with cities and people being able to "live" in the DR", and also the idea of wars "DR vs. WOTL", at least in the common notion of a fight and "living".
However, what I have never found any reference to is the point about respawning in a random body. It would re-add all the issues about having a forcedly fully random char creation, and therefore is something that should not be done. It might be possible to RP it that way in special circumstances, but not as general rule IMO.

Also, as usual, a note about "It's fantasy!" seems in order: Yes, PS is fantasy, and yes, in "fantasy", everything is possible. But this is valid only until one decides on a world, on a setting, and after that has been decided, then there is no more "fantasy" allowed than the setting states there is. To put it in a concrete example:
When there is a PnP RPG in which death is final (there are several), then even though these are "fantasy", you'll still not get your GM to accept your "My char just came back from the dead, since it's fantasy, everyone can if they want!" reasoning. Nor will your other players. Unless you reach a group-wide agreement that in your particular instance of that setting, death is not necessarily permanent.
Transducing this to PS, this means that you would have to reach a community-wide (devs and every player included) agreement. The impossibility of that rules out such an option for PS.

Therefore, we can not define things like this in PS. We must try to find out what the devs really intended, and fill in the gaps by the most likely version, the one that has most backing in the settings, not in the implementation, since the latter, as has been uniamously accepted AFAICS, is not adhering to the settings for OOC reasons like pre-alphaness.

@Anfa: the quest is still quite possible in an RP setting that lacks causal DR travel. To RP that, you'll obviously need to find a RP way to enter the DR, and get back out. That can be a powerful necromancer, a priest, or some other, less general way (like finding a scroll, or a dimensional rift, etc.). The trip may also not be permanent. It could be that your travel provider can keep you in the DR for a set time only, like IRL you can remain in space only for a set time. So you don't necessarily have to fully enter to solve that quest, smoothing out the issue of the inventory in that case. (Though I think that this quest and trainer location is, to put it mildly, not wisely chosen for the current development stage, since it obviously creates confusion that takes some extra thinking and background information to get it set right, something that can not be expected of the average player.)

To find a dark way trainer in the DR is also pretty likely. There surely are some in the WOTL as well, but harder to find, obviously, and not implemented yet, too. But it is established that not implementedness doesn't mean that it is meant to be RP'd as such. Do you really RP that you can't find a merchant that buys animal remains outside the DR? Surely not, so why would it be any different with dark way trainers?
So the conclusion is that you IC-ly train with some dark mage in the WOTL, while you OOC-ly train in the DR. This is just like the mines... does anyone truly RP that they simply walk into the temple of a god that really exists, completely ignoring the priests (running right past them), into the inner sanctum(!), jump into the sacrificial well in order to do something as mundane as mining? Surely not. The real thing would be to simply use a ladder to access the blocked entrance. But there are no movable ladders in PS, so people go that route... RP? Part of the settings? No. Mere lack of implementation. The spirit of that arrangement is "there is a ceremonial well in the temple, where sacrifices are made to Laanx. This well is, possibly by chance (erosion / cave-ins), connected to an ancient dungeon that is neither well explored nor safe to enter (though the bridge means that there either once was an exploration going on there, but the state it's in hints that that has been long ago, or it is now used as a deadly maze for living sacrifices to die in.). There also is a place where ores can be mined, but the access to this was the warehouse which likely has been sealed (by a wall for lack of working doors (implementation issue again)) by the one who owns the mines, so getting in isn't easy (and would represent trespassing, if not theft, if it came to a trial, if this mine was the only one in Yliakum (again, by definition of the setting, not the implementation))."
An entrance to a mine from the inner sanctum of a temple clearly is suitable only for a god of mining, which Laanx is not.

I find that many quests are hard to make part of RP, simply because they are more or less unique. Take the familiar quest, for example. It is highly unlikely that Levrus would ever need that done twice. So two people can't really RP to have been on that quest, so they can't RP to be on that quest. Same with Brintec fur research. They are SPG-like quests, and as such not suited for IC use in a MMORPG. (With Levrus you can claim some special weirdness of the person, but not with Brintec).

All of this does not mean that PS is like RL. I don't see where I might have raised that view which Syilph seems to have noted. In RL, there is no DR from where people come back, even irregularly. So the water, to a certain degree, already flows upwards in PS. But it does so to the extent the settings states only, not to the extent the implementation or even less to the extent player laziness states, not even close. Also, even though technically it might run upwards, a well-thought out setting must provide some pseudo-natural laws that not only state the fact, but also the reason and the effect. Like in this case "where does the water come from if it vanishes into the sky"? PS-wise: why is it that even though noone dies, yet people still get born, that there still is space left in Yliakum? So there is a limit to the degree of freedom even in an unformed fantasy setting. Since we have the twin facts that there is a DR, out of which people can get back to the WOTL, yet there is no overpopulation in Yliakum even after centuries of continued birth, there must be quite a high loss in the WOTL->DR->WOTL transmission. A loss that, even if not 100% as IRL, will need to be carefully considered by the living. Would you purchase a car that explodes with a 99% chance? So obviously even with the theoretical chance of getting back from death, Yliaki would not risk dying without real need, so things would not change much compared to RL.

It also quite obviously brings up the question of aging. If noone ever really dies, then noone really ages, as aging is simply a degrading process of the body, just like is being burned to death. If you are being burned by a spell-effect like meteor, or forcibly aged by another spell effect, then that would in no way differ from the real thing. If you then come back in one case, then you also come back in the other, or that other case does simply not exist (and indeed we don't have life expectancies in the settings, though there are the vague notions about middle-agedness in NPC descriptions.).
Thus things aren't as free as the lack of expliciteness in the settings might suggest, as many things just follow from RL, for the simple lack of other options. These in turn force certain other conclusions that eventually narrow down the truly possible explanations.

@Nikodemus: the settings references a "soul" where it says that "once the soul has departed the body, it's just rubbish" (burial wells). So there is the notion of "soul".

@Kerol: (Thanks! :) ) Using the DR (as well as any other place in PS) as different place than default, clearly does not constitute a breach of the settings, but requires the concrete introduction and likely /grouping you mentioned. But even the "high loss" view does allow for meaningful RP of the DR without transposing it elsewhere.
Anyway, as the actual DR hasn't been defined well by the settings team yet, as well as things surrounding it, the most important thing is to prevent death from losing it's bite in RP. It does not matter what PLs do, not even those who try to make their PL look like RP, nor the abusers that use death teleport, nor bugs. The DR occurs in RP seldomly enough to be able to make do without proper background there, and use an individual interpretation akin to the one Kerol and others have presented in case of need, after agreeing on that with the group of RPers the RP takes place in, without affecting the remaining community (by not definging it as "the DR"), or a different approach.

That uncertanity can, as stated earlier, be made IC, as with this view, chars know even less than we do, for the most part.

Kerol

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2006, 12:47:12 am »
I had an extensive discussion about that topic with Darkmoon (the leader of the settings dep). I asked him for his (official) opinion on this matter and will quote some points from this convo.

Quote
Ker_lap, 18.06.2006 23:40:20 :
the problem is how to RP the DR
following questions are related:

1. are there souls?
2. if yes, are only souls roaming in the DR, without body and inventory?
3. would a dead soul get ressurected in the same body?
4. what happens to a soul if it get resurrected, but the body is already gone (via debris well/hole)

Darkmoon, 18.06.2006 23:56:45 :
well, as to #3, I think it would have to be same body, just have any dmg removed. 
Going into an old, wounded/mutilated/headless body would be unproductive to continuing quests and such. 
And we wouldn't want a soul in a body that it doesn't belong to.

Ker_lap, 18.06.2006 23:57:12 :
why not? :)

Darkmoon, 18.06.2006 23:57:22 :
too confusing

Darkmoon, 18.06.2006 23:58:11 :
for #1, I'd say yes, or at least something similar

Darkmoon, 18.06.2006 23:58:50 :
as for #2, I always imagined separate inventories for living/dead versions of chars.
after all, your body carries physical stuff, where's that going to fit in the DR?

Ker_lap, 18.06.2006 23:59:46 :
ok, then we got a problem

Darkmoon, 18.06.2006 23:59:50 :
I also wanted DR-specific items and such that don't carry back to Yliakum

Ker_lap, 19.06.2006 00:00:15 :
there is a quest that says you need to take an item from the wotl into the DR

Darkmoon, 19.06.2006 00:02:04 :
I suppose that there can be items that transcend, but you must understand that separating the DR and Yliakum now isn't possible yet, inventory-wise
atm, it's just another map

Ker_lap, 19.06.2006 00:03:01 :
but quests are considered as official guidelines by many RPers what the world will look like

Darkmoon, 19.06.2006 00:06:29 :
I will tell you that the current layout of Yliakum (in-game) is not the way our official maps look. 
Everything will be switched around in the future.  Cities and locations will be in new directions.

Ker_lap, 19.06.2006 00:07:01 :
thats not the problem, i believe

Darkmoon, 19.06.2006 00:07:09 :
as well as putting things between already known locations and spacing things out further
people will get lost again, saying "this isn't the world we know".

Ker_lap, 19.06.2006 00:07:48 :
its more the consistency of the settings, and how the quests and NPCs are complying with them

Darkmoon, 19.06.2006 00:08:21 :
many of the quests are made to stretch our understanding and limitations of the quest system.

Thanks a lot to Darkmoon who was answering the questions without bribe :flowers:

I hope this clearifies the situation a little.


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Seytra

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2006, 01:10:46 am »
Thanks for posting this, it indeed does change some things, though the most important message seems to be that the implementation is even less official than even I assumed.

One thing that hasn't been answered is the implication of the soul going back into the same body (#4). I assume that this implies the movement of the body from whereever it was, in whatever state, to the location of respawn in perfect condition... still this has issues. What if the body is now part of something else, like you've been in the DR for some years and your body has been dissolved partially and now it's atoms are part of something else, like a worm? Upon resurrection, will that worm then suddenly find itself lacking possibly vital parts? Will a fly that formerly was a maggot in your dead flesh vanish upon your resurrection save the things it ate after leaving you?
So it seems to be not really the previous body, but one that is like the old one, and the old one, if still discernible, is left alone.

Likewise, if your inventory persists past death, where does it go while dead? This is more or less a completely OOC thing, unless there's actually some explanation for it to be otherwise. Until then, from an RP PoV it should IMO be regarded as OOC convenience, and real death should mean, RP-wise, possible theft unless guarded.

And, of course, the most important issue hasn't even been touched: what is the likelyhood, averaged over the entire population of Yliakum and everything connected to it, including NPCs and persons that are not chars nor explicit NPCs (the "men on the street"), of going to the DR and getting back after dying? Not the player convenience of everyone getting back, unless they are the same, which would be a shame.

I understand that the DR is more or less just a concept without concrete fleshing out ATM, but since many things (including design and story decisions) depend on the answers to these questions, it would be good to have them answered, at least team-internal (though I don't see harm coming from releasing that information once it's there).

Anyway, thanks for that info Kerol and Darkmoon!

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2006, 03:31:14 am »
Been awhile since I've posted anything heh. But this topic caught my eye, and I'd like to add an idea. If it's been mentioned before, then please don't shoot me? ;)

So, a character dies, and their soul is wisked off, or "caught" in the Death Realm. Now...while the person's soul is in there, what happens to their corporeal form, their actual body?  The idea, or connection I'm trying to make here, is that, while you're wandering around in the DR trying to find your way out, time is still passing in the WOTL, correct? I guess the idea, or concept I have, is what happens if the body gets eaten, or consumed, or whatnot?  If the body is in a relatively safe place, what about rotting/decaying/whatever?  Point is, if you can't find your way out of the Death Realm within a certain time,  does/should the body become unusable, and unsuitable for retaining a soul? I.E. Perhaps after so much time lingering in the DR, the soul becomes permanently trapped there?  (unless they somehow make it out anyways, and exhist as a non-corporeal entity?  Ghosts anyone? ^_^)

Now, i'm not saying that the DR, and the WOTL exist in the same time stream, for all I know, an hour in WOTL could be a day in the Death Realm, or some such, but mebbe RP-wise, try imposing a time limit on yourself, and if you overstep the bounds, you become perma-dead?

Just my two tria.  Nice discussion though :D

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2006, 01:36:25 pm »
Too bad "Nilrem Driel" may not yet have visited this thread. I'm sure he thinks in a similar way as Seytra. His fears of the death are "legendary"! ;)

Do I have to be ashamed because I don't think as much about this topic as you do?

I had another experience, similar to Rilar's soul retrieving, where my magic potion ran out too quickly (I had to leave to bed finally). This was with Verrliit trying to rescue Lolitra out of the Death Realm (ended by a blackout of the Laanx server). And we had to use similar preparations to enter.

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2006, 08:47:22 pm »
Well, I had this crazy idea. Maybe people do not want to leave the death realm? Maybe they lost their motor that keeps them on living? Maybe they are just to scared about their sudden death?
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LigH

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Re: The DR (for RPers only)
« Reply #29 on: June 22, 2006, 09:05:09 am »
Oh, there are "citizen" of the Death Realm - who can't or don't want to leave it. Ever met e.g. Tharos?

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