water and stone

[Baldur]

Baldur, are you referring to the laws of thermodynamics? That energy cannot be created or destroyed? It would make sense that way, since it can apply to matter as well.

That would be an option yes. As Kixie brought up his school work it's fair enough I bring up mine and end this.

[Kixie]

Baldur, are you referring to the laws of thermodynamics? That energy cannot be created or destroyed? It would make sense that way, since it can apply to matter as well.

Exactly. No matter is ever destroyed, just broken down into different shapes.

Water is as pure as granite. While PURE water is indeed derived from one part Hydrogen, and 2 parts Oxygen, that is often not the case. Water as we know it, is just as varied in it's chemical makeup as Granite or any other stone. In fact, it is theoretically possible to make a stone of 100% calcium, or 100% carbon. In that sense, your whole argument is completely unfounded.

[Baldur]

Let's skip this crap, you think I'm opposing your theory but i'm not, i'm actually with you on this. You noticed how this argumentation turned into a discussion whether matter is the same as energy or not. I DO believe in that theory, I do. I believe matter is condensed energy, like air in scubadiving tubes.

Let's cut to the case, we totally lost the point of this discussion. We're too modernistic, my conclusion is you can't explain these symboles modernistically without destroying it's meaning, you can't. I felt very lost and I feel it has no purpose to argument what water symbolizes in a modernistic sense, I mean listen to it! Modernism and Symbolism described in one sense, they're completely seperate things!

What I propose is we end this discussion as I have the same viewpoints as you, then only thing is we don't understand each other's points. We see them as arguments aginainst each other.

[neko kyouran]

Can I still be a cloud? 

[Baldur]

Can I still be a cloud? 

I can't remember anyone ever stopping you

[zanzibar]

Let's skip this crap, you think I'm opposing your theory but i'm not, i'm actually with you on this. You noticed how this argumentation turned into a discussion whether matter is the same as energy or not. I DO believe in that theory, I do. I believe matter is condensed energy, like air in scubadiving tubes.

Let's cut to the case, we totally lost the point of this discussion. We're too modernistic, my conclusion is you can't explain these symboles modernistically without destroying it's meaning, you can't. I felt very lost and I feel it has no purpose to argument what water symbolizes in a modernistic sense, I mean listen to it! Modernism and Symbolism described in one sense, they're completely seperate things!

What I propose is we end this discussion as I have the same viewpoints as you, then only thing is we don't understand each other's points. We see them as arguments aginainst each other.

Matter can turn into energy and energy can turn into matter.  It happens all the time.  When the relative energy of a body increases, so does its relative mass.  In the other direction you have nuclear bombs where atoms turn into energy.

So, if you don't believe in the theory, then you don't believe in atomic bombs.

[Baldur]

Exactly, now don't insult me by saying i don't believe in nuclear bombs.

[Araye]

I should probably keep my mouth shut as I hate raising Zanzibar's ire, but atoms don't turn into energy in nuclear fission.  The energy released is that which held the large atom together.  The resultants are basically two smallers atoms and the energy that was needed to bind the larger atom.  Same thing happens as an atom decays.  As it loses it's constituants, the resultants are the lost electron (example) and the energy required to keep that electron.  The lost energey can take many forms - heat, light, gamma rays...

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The Enlightened One believes that energy and matter are one; they just have different frequencies.  She also teaches that thoughts can interchange the two.

Araye Bayebes
The Enlightened

[Baldur]

I should probably keep my mouth shut as I hate raising Zanzibar's ire, but atoms don't turn into energy in nuclear fission.  The energy released is that which held the large atom together.  The resultants are basically two smallers atoms and the energy that was needed to bind the larger atom.  Same thing happens as an atom decays.  As it loses it's constituants, the resultants are the lost electron (example) and the energy required to keep that electron.  The lost energey can take many forms - heat, light, gamma rays...

*************************

The Enlightened One believes that energy and matter are one; they just have different frequencies.  She also teaches that thoughts can interchange the two.

Araye Bayebes
The Enlightened

As long as it's the truth you don't have to be afraid, I myself believe in the theory of matter being energy. Energy is a hard defined term which can be of several states, no one knows excactly how to define "energy", the only thing we know is it creates actions.
Matter is a sort of stationary energy. It's stored energy which can be extracted. The energy doesn't disappear (as you think i think) it's modified into a different energy, for example nuclear if it's uranium.

By theory, every object on earth can be modified into pure energy, now here's where it becomes tricky. What for IS pure energy and how should we make the stone modify into pure energy? Those questions don't need to be discussed, I believe we will come nowhere(as others have) and will just take up too much space if we're persistent.

I am not an opposer of the energy/matter idea. I am a man who believes that everything consists of something, what it is I do not know yet, future will tell unless we blow ourselves up.

I back you up on that, they split the atom, creating a new atom of protons and electrons(neutrons). The uranium isn't radioactive until you've split the atoms and broken the energetic links which bind the electron's, protones and neutrons together. I will not dwell further, it's still unexplored area for me what happens after the atoms are split and what radioactivity really is and what causes it to burn. I'll let you find that out.

[zanzibar]

I should probably keep my mouth shut as I hate raising Zanzibar's ire, but atoms don't turn into energy in nuclear fission.  The energy released is that which held the large atom together.  The resultants are basically two smallers atoms and the energy that was needed to bind the larger atom.  Same thing happens as an atom decays.  As it loses it's constituants, the resultants are the lost electron (example) and the energy required to keep that electron.  The lost energey can take many forms - heat, light, gamma rays...

*************************

The Enlightened One believes that energy and matter are one; they just have different frequencies.  She also teaches that thoughts can interchange the two.

Araye Bayebes
The Enlightened

I was taught that the sum of the mass you have after a nuclear reaction is less than the sum of the mass before the reaction.  Mass literally becomes energy in the proportion of E=mc^2.  Are you saying this is wrong?

The energy of the electromagnetic field keeping a proton or atomic nucleus together with its electrons is just a single particle:  The photon.  Heat is from photons in a field/wave state as opposed to a particle-wave; photons are the particle that transfer the electromagnetic force.  It's only one kind of energy, but that particle is experienced differently depending on how it's manifesting (heat, motion, electromagnetism).

[Araye]

Welcome to quantum physics ladies and gentlemen!

Z:  it is true that there is less mass after the reaction, but it is also true that the atom itself didn't turn into energy.  It became smaller atoms and energy (at t = few seconds).  As the two pieces split and reformed into stable elements a lot of things happened.  Smaller, subatomic particles where released which have VERY short existences as mass.  (I have a personally belief that some of these, once released from their bonds, are able to accelerate back to their equilibrium state - energy.  After all they can't just cease to exist.  But others would say, "pass that over here man.")  Photons where given off.  Photons have mass.  It's a crazy world at that moment.  Hell, some might same things happen to time or other dimensions.  I leave that to the boys with the big guns to explain though.

Araye

[Baldur]

Welcome to quantum physics ladies and gentlemen!

Z:  it is true that there is less mass after the reaction, but it is also true that the atom itself didn't turn into energy.  It became smaller atoms and energy (at t = few seconds).  As the two pieces split and reformed into stable elements a lot of things happened.  Smaller, subatomic particles where released which have VERY short existences as mass.  (I have a personally belief that some of these, once released from their bonds, are able to accelerate back to their equilibrium state - energy.  After all they can't just cease to exist.  But others would say, "pass that over here man.")  Photons where given off.  Photons have mass.  It's a crazy world at that moment.  Hell, some might same things happen to time or other dimensions.  I leave that to the boys with the big guns to explain though.

Araye

What about radioactivity, how does this "burning" of our skins work? What particles and what process leads them to become so loaded they rip electrons from our skin? How does the radioactive suits work, do they work at all in keeping radioactivity out? What do the suits consist of? I'm really curious.

[Araye]

Oh no, what did I do?

B:  radioactivity (as you are using it) is a very basic term for "the atom gave something off".  The three most basic things given off are alpha and beta particles and gamma rays (there are other things, but too many to discuss).  Alpha and beta particles are actually heavy subatomic particles.  They don't have enough energy to penetrate the skin or clothing, but can cause cancer if they enter the skin - say through a cut or through ingestion.  These particles are in the "fallout".  If you eat food with these particles on it - hello leukemia.  The "burning" comes from the gamma.  The gamma rays can go right through you (think microwave oven - another form of radiation).  They are so small (higher the frequency, smaller the wave) that they can get through even thin lead layers.  So lead lined garments (like the blanket you get when having a x-ray) can protect you.  It is just like the window on the microwave oven; the microwave (itself) is too large to get through the metal mesh that is covering the glass and bounce back into the oven.  But the gamma rays burn just like a microwave too.  The microwave works because it uses a specific frequency to excite water molecules (2.5xxx GHz - yes the same one for wireless g and older cordless phones) to produce steam.  This cooks the food.  Gamma rays can excite most matter - which is converted to heat as it is absorbed. 

Just remember "radiation" is a very broad term.  Right now you are being bombarded by huge amounts of radiation - and we don't even know it - cosmic rays (so small they can penetrate the earth many times over and not collide with anything) to radio waves (carry most of our communications).

One could go on and on about this...

Araye

[Kixie]

This is way offtopic, but I have to ask: Isn't the energy that damages the skin, and cause physical harm to the body after a nuclear explosion known as "Gamma rays"?

That's what they tell me on Discovery Channel anyways. I know how they love simplifying stuff down for the layman to recognize, so I have no idea how accurate this all is. I failed chemistry class, and gave the middle finger to Physics on my last class registration sheet. No clue about any of this stuff.

[Baldur]

This is way offtopic, but I have to ask: Isn't the energy that damages the skin, and cause physical harm to the body after a nuclear explosion known as "Gamma rays"?

That's what they tell me on Discovery Channel anyways. I know how they love simplifying stuff down for the layman to recognize, so I have no idea how accurate this all is. I failed chemistry class, and gave the middle finger to Physics on my last class registration sheet. No clue about any of this stuff.

The "burning" comes from the gamma.  The gamma rays can go right through you (think microwave oven - another form of radiation).

Read more carefully next time, half the post describes Gamma rays, they can go through almost anything but lead and can therefore harm your body.