Expand Stats

[Suno_Regin]

Come on, are stats really only going to effect how much health points and MP you have? These need to be greatly expanded. For example, to stop people from maxing every single skill available, there should be a stat limit on what they can and can't do. If you intelligence is level 100, you can't max more than two magic skills, say Crystal Way and Brown Way. Or, they could balance them, like level 20 Crystal, Brown, Red, etc. But being able to max every single stat makes your character seem like a God. In fact, these Ways shouldn't even be mixed. If you maxed Crystal way, you can't max Dark Way, or even train it. Instead you can only train relating skills, such as Azure and Blue ways to 3/4 of the max. And Red and Brown ways to only 1/2, since they aren't the exact opposite of crystal. Now if you max Blue way, you couldn't max Red way, and the balance would go on from there. But maxed magic levels should only be determined by intelligence. If you're dumb as a brick, say 40 INT, you could only get Crystal way to about level 15 at the most. To train it more, you'd have to train your intelligence first. Once again, this would stop people from maxing every single skill available and becoming Gods.

Here comes capacity. If your INT is maxed, and you max Crystal way and train a few other magic skills as high as they'll go, you'd have capacity problems. You can't learn everything in the world, or else you'd forget. If you have mastered Crystal way, and try to learn all other magic, you'd probably forget your Crystal way training, from trying to learn all those other things, and the skill itself would level down to make room for the skill you're trying to train. After all, we can't have Godly intelligence.

Now for fighting skills. Unless you're some kind of Godly warrior, you can't master all types of weapons. Maybe three at the most, and that's only if they're related to eachother, such as swords and axes, or maces and mauls. The way to fight with them would be similar, like smash the opponent or cut them. But to master using swords, holding the handle and slashing, then trying to learn pole arms, lengthing the pole to your arm and sweeping your enemies, that doesn't work. The weapons need to be related to eachother or else it just won't work.

Once again, the system works. If you master swords, you can master related weapons such as Axes. But you can't train the opposite, which would be maces or mauls. You could however, train polearms to 3/4 the max, and maces and mauls to 1/2 the max, but you can't max either one, since you've already maxed swords. You could however exceed the capacity and level down in swords to train them further (just a note: melee has nothing to do with this).

Now for stat limitations for fighting skills. To majorly stop powerleveling, you need to have endurance take a little more effect. This means if you've powerleveled for such a long time, you'd grow tired. This has already been implimented, with SP going into effect after long fighting or mining, but it takes far too long for the person to grow tired for that system to work. At this point, when your SP reaches 0, Will would come into effect. The will to carry on despite grevious wounds. If your enemy and you are both tired, the person's will would decide who would win. They could deliver a final blow by costing a little of their own HP, and kill their enemy. But after that they wouldn't be able to move, and would have to rest in that spot.

A few short descriptions of what I think skills should be:

Strength - Determines attacking power. Related with Will and Endurance.

Endurance - Determines how long you can do something, such as fight or mine. Related with Strength and Will. (CAPACITY)

Will - Determines what you can do despite being heavily exausted, such as take one more swing with the pickaxe or deliver a final blow. Related with Strength and Endurance.

Intelligence - Determines how strong your magic will hit, along with how much magic you can learn. (CAPACITY)

Agility - Determines your quickness, gives you the ability to run faster, jump higher, and deliver a quicker blow.

Charisma - (not decided)

[Zan]

I mentioned a simple system to achieve what you seem to want to see ... time decay on skills. A skill that isn't maintained (read: not used actively) will decrease very slowly over time.

People seemed to be against it since it was supposed to encourage powerleveling, where I completely don't see how something like that could encourage powerleveling anymore than it is now. 90% of what people do now is train and powerlevel until they're maxed out with practically everything. Sure if skills can decay you'll have to retrain your skills regularly so you could keep on powerleveling but I doubt it'd make a difference. Either you're the kind of player that likes to grind and train away or you're the kind of player that likes to roleplay and only maintain what skills he or she needs to get by financially.

[Seytra]

The issue is that if you must maintain skills, then that means any RPer will be forced to do one of the following:

1) play less in order to have less ingame time logged to slow down skill decay, therefore obviously RPing less or
2) spend time maintaining skills instead of RPing, thus RPing less, since overall playing time doesn't increase.
3) Not level at all anymore, thereby being even more prone to being shut out of skill based quests and similar things than they are now.

PLs, OTOH, would not really be impacted by that system since they PL regardless of what are the costs of the levels, so the decay factor would be identical to a slight increase of training cost and barely noticable.

Most levelling RPers do is in order to get their stats and RP in synch, to RP more believably. Making that harder won't reduce PL but further skew the balance of RP and skillset.

Let's face it: the fact that you start low and "lvlup" over time comes from the PnP RPGs, where one needed rules to keep inexperienced players from creating a mess by making irrational chars. It was never intended to better RP by itself. In these environments it worked comparatively well, because there was precious little change in the group of players, hence there was few need to accommodate new players, and if, one can work around that.
When transported to MMORPGs, that system proves to be insufficient. It creates competition among the players, not the chars, for being the one with the highest stats and most expensive items. It also removes the option for an experienced RPer to create the character they envision, and instead forces them to keep levelling until they reach that goal, or to RP without matching stats.

Obviously, in an MMORPG, the need to keep players at bay still exists, though one may think about removing all levelling and instead let players set their stats directly, which has been discussed before and would create a set of different issues.

Anyway, the conclusion I have arrived at is that making it harder to level (which skill decay effectively does, too) does not stop a single PL from levelling, does not make RP any more frequent or better, but instead makes more RPers just think "nevermind the system" and RP without matching stats.
Realistic RP comes from those who are experienced or natively good RPers; levelling restrictions do not prevent unrealistic RP in any way. Just think of all the "My char comes from a different place that doesn't even exist within the settings." players... hardly good RP, regardless of stats.

[Zan]

The issue is that if you must maintain skills, then that means any RPer will be forced to do one of the following:

1) play less in order to have less ingame time logged to slow down skill decay, therefore obviously RPing less or
2) spend time maintaining skills instead of RPing, thus RPing less, since overall playing time doesn't increase.
3) Not level at all anymore, thereby being even more prone to being shut out of skill based quests and similar things than they are now.

I completely disagree, a good RPer will play out his/her character's life .. in that life they will have a job that depends on skills and those skills will automatically be trained/maintained by RPing like you should. By RPing your character like you want it to you'll use the skills your character needs and depends on so nothing will happen since the skill decay will obviously be a slow process. RPing shouldn't be just chatting in a game like this, it should include using the skills you want your character to develope. A blacksmith working every day and selling his crafted items to others is good RP in my eyes. A fighter suddenly deciding to become a blacksmith and intensively training in crafting to then become a master blacksmith, without his fighting abilities suffering in the least, is rather bad and unrealistic RP in my eyes. The only thing that a system like this will do in my eyes is exclude the allpowerful and make everything a whole lot more realistic.

What disturbs me most of all among the RPers right now is that there are characters with practically everything maxed out and no inherent weaknesses. They're great at everything and will stay that way until a wipe appears ... but what when the game is so far gone that no more wipes need to happen? Roleplaying with or against those people is something I don't find very enjoyable at all. Things become fun when everyone has a specific strength and specific weaknesses .. then teamwork comes into play, everyone stands a chance and everyone becomes useful or useless, depending on the situation. Specialisation is the basis of the entire social and economical network we now know, it has been since the beginning days of our homo sapiens sapiens lives.

So the way I see it my suggestion will not disadvantage RP, it will make it more realistic, more team oriented and remove godlike characters. What it does to power levelers .. irritate them because they can never rest or encourage them because they can keep powerlevelling in all its fun .. who cares

[Pestilence]

hhmm agree with Zans point and disagree with it

The point I agree with is that you shouldn't be able to max everything. If not for the sake of reality for that sake the people should need eachother to obtain the big things so to say. To have to work togheter with different styles to get the most of battle or crafting.

I would therefor like some mutual exclusive skills where you need to make a choice in how your character develops. At the moment you don't chose what you develop your character like you just chose what you level first.

The point I highly disagree with however is to see the degenarative stats he proposes.

If the minus would be -1 for example per ten hours one plays you are forced to use the gamemechanic to counter that atleast. You are forgetting Zan that something like that RP blacksmithing here counts for absolutely nothing. So you get someone who actually RPs blacksmithing degenerating in blacksmithing.

It would also be unfair seeing RPing is said to be the main focus so I don't think any skill should degenarate while RPing but with your suggestion it would. If for example you have an RPer who uses it now and then and earns lets say 2 points in two hours (just using points as a way to make the example easier) and he loses 1 he only earns 1.

A powerleveler would only be earning points so he gets lets say 30 minus 1 would make 29.

As you can see for the same effort in training the RPer would be punished becuase he doesn't spend all his time training. He gets the minus much more often just becuase he takes longer to train skills in a more realistic way then powerleveling I may add.

Therefor I agree with the underlying problem but I feel this would make it worse instead of solving it.

[DaveG]

Not that you can't talk this all to death again, but... it's been talked to death already.  Though, I'm too lazy to find my old threads on it. 

I think one of the conclusions was to have a natural buff on things when used recently, but not a large one.

And, by the way, when the game is done there shouldn't be the ability to distinguish between so called RPers and PLers.  Everyone will have different skills used/not used, and if you aren't using any you aren't playing the game.

[Zan]

My idea was more like when you don't swing a sword once in X in-game hours, you lose a sword skill point. When you do swing it at least once, you maintain your skill level for the next X hours. So when you're using a skill decay stops .. it only jumps in when you neglect skills. The X could be very long at first but level dependant to make a skill harder and harder to maintain at very high levels.

Anyways ... no point in discussing something that has already been discussed plenty so I'll let it rest

[Nikodemus]

Come on, are stats really only going to effect how much health points and MP you have?

There are no health points in PS.

[/url]2.5.3. Hit Points

Hit Points are calculated with a formula that involves strength, agility and endurance - endurance being the greatest factor. A character can increase his or her Hit Points by training in the skill of Body Development.

[Suno_Regin]

Hit points and health points are pretty much the same thing...don't make it more complicated than it is.

[Seytra]

I completely disagree, a good RPer will play out his/her character's life .. in that life they will have a job that depends on skills and those skills will automatically be trained/maintained by RPing like you should. By RPing your character like you want it to you'll use the skills your character needs and depends on so nothing will happen since the skill decay will obviously be a slow process. RPing shouldn't be just chatting in a game like this, it should include using the skills you want your character to develope. A blacksmith working every day and selling his crafted items to others is good RP in my eyes. A fighter suddenly deciding to become a blacksmith and intensively training in crafting to then become a master blacksmith, without his fighting abilities suffering in the least, is rather bad and unrealistic RP in my eyes. The only thing that a system like this will do in my eyes is exclude the allpowerful and make everything a whole lot more realistic.

This doesn't fit a game like this, though. Granted and obviously, an RPer should strive to have their char's skills and stats match as closely what they RP as possible. However, there will not be a way to make this entirely possible within the near or medium future. Furthermore, there is one very important issue: a severe time skew. Ingame days are very short, while the time it takes to RP a given situation, compared to, say, P&P RPGs, takes magnitudes longer if done well. In addition, even IRL skills don't decay as fast as you proposed. The levelling speed essentially doesn't match up with the RP pace of life. It is either too fast, which is the case with PLs, or too slow, which is the case for RPers.
If you RP properly, you will spend quite a while indeed just entering and reading text, moving around occasionally. Actually using your char's skills within a true RP context (as opposed to a context that can be phrased as being IC with reasonable good will) will happen very seldomly. What makes RP is most of the time not the use of skills themselves, but the interaction with others, talking to them, in order to find, analyse and work out possible ways to act for any given problem. Actual use of skills is more or less either present on quests, or when you are not interacting with anyone.
Also, the fewer time you can spend per day on PS, the more time you will wish to spend on interaction, and that means that over the same ingame time total being logged, someone with fewer RL time will interact to a higher percentage than someone who has more RL time to spend on PS (and thus reasonably more easy may find time to squeeze in some levelling).

What disturbs me most of all among the RPers right now is that there are characters with practically everything maxed out and no inherent weaknesses. They're great at everything and will stay that way until a wipe appears ... but what when the game is so far gone that no more wipes need to happen? Roleplaying with or against those people is something I don't find very enjoyable at all. Things become fun when everyone has a specific strength and specific weaknesses .. then teamwork comes into play, everyone stands a chance and everyone becomes useful or useless, depending on the situation. Specialisation is the basis of the entire social and economical network we now know, it has been since the beginning days of our homo sapiens sapiens lives.

Indeed, but that is not even dependant on ingame skills at all. People can very well "RP" invincible chars without maxed stats. What you are probably referring to are all the "reformed" PLs, i.e. those who PL'd until they were maxed, and then started to "RP" for lack of options. The PL mindset still pervails. It's obvious that I try to completely avoid these people if at all possible. It's usually quite easy to spot them by simply checking registration date against relative char strength. An additional look at their description, if it exists at all, usually confirms that. Watching out for certain problematic guilds and races also helps.

[Suno_Regin]

Yes, but you can't roleplay a duel and someone dying. If you roleplay an invincible character with crap stats and try to duel someone, you're going to be killed. And I tried this countless times with Xidus, until I just decided I had it and trained him as hard and fast as I could so that would stop and people would take the RP seriously. It just doesn't work, and I have experience with it.

[Seytra]

That's why I think that the duelling system is particularly unsuited for RP, because it depends on RL issues like there's no tomorrow. The really exciting and interesting fights have never happened using the duelling system, at least not for me.
Furthermore, someone dying is the exception, not the rule, it must be, if you are to treat death at all seriously in your RP and not having to start over with a new char every second day.
A good RPer will, by themselves, not RP an invincible char. A system that makes stats decay will not make good RPers out of crap ones. In fact, no system will, so sacrificing freedom of chosing when and how much to level will not at all improve RP quality nor quantity. It may force more interaction, but that would be just as un-RP as not having it.
Also, if someone insists on being an army of one, they will use alts. As many alts as it takes to have every skill maxed.

[Nikodemus]

Hit points and health points are pretty much the same thing...don't make it more complicated than it is.

... Yet something pretty much else. In fact the most similiarity is in acronyms of each. While health points show your state of health and how well you are feeling, hit points indicate the amount of hits which could possible happen before you loose the fight and die. This is pretty much a reason why some people complain that the fight should end after 1-2 hits. While it is true to health points, it is very rare situation for hit points.

Maybe this is not exactly on your topic, but it is in the first sentence of your first post. And it is important to distinct health points from hit points.

[Suno_Regin]

Is it really necessary? Some games use hit points, some use health points, no big deal.

[Seytra]

Probably correct definition-wise. However, these two things are always munged into one thing, at least I haven't come accross separate systems for each yet. After all, when you take a hit, you stop feeling as well as before, and many will say that your health also isn't as good as before anymore. Likewise, if your health drops due to, say, poison, you'll also be stricken down easier, so your hit points will need to lower, too. Thus, I think they really are interchangeable.