/report and even more exciting!!!!!

[Seytra]

There's a very big difference between email and the PS server.  Email is yours; PS is not.

I own the mail servers just as much as I own PS: not at all. Still, the content of mails I send are mine. The contents of what I send through PS can therefore be expected to be just as mine.

You don't have an assumption of privacy.  It's ours, and we can do whatever we want with it.

Just as the mail provider.

Techincally speaking, a free email provider could root through your email all they want, so long as they haven't agreed up front that they won't.  We made no such agreements.  That doesn't mean we're going to do all sorts of sneaky spying things, but we can.

I do, however, agree on the point that we should probably post a privacy policy somewhere stating this explicitly.

Be sure to include something about PMs on the forum, as I suppose they are just as "not private" as are /tells ingame...

[DaveG]

Ok, let me put it this way:  The stuff you send is yours but you have no right to restrict viewing on it unless there was a prior agreement to that fact.

Yes, PMs on our forums also fall into that category.  Any time you're sending stuff on someone else's system you have no expectation of privacy.  It needs to either be your own private stuff or you need to have agreed beforehand that it must be considered private.  Otherwise, it's public or at far least not private.

No one honestly thinks we're going to grab PMs or /tells and post them somewhere for people to make fun of, or something ridiculous like that.  But, we do have the right to do so.  All we care to do is look at a few stupid little things that someone complained about.  It's already assumed that we have the right to do that, because it was never stated that we don't.  (we run the servers, so the default assumption is we can do whatever we want)

[Karyuu]

If someone reports someone being offensive in PMs, yes an admin can go and check along with you providing evidence of the offensive text.

I think this is just making a big deal out of things. It's not an "invasion" but a useful tool that can prevent in-game abuse and get quick GM help. If need be (most likely), a Privacy Policy will be added. I don't see this as a reason to panic.

[DaveG]

This is really just another case of people begining to understand these sort of issues, but missing many of the points.  The other main example is that people know they need to get a firewall, but never bother to learn how to use the freakin' things.  There are lots of issues like this that are very important but get skewed most of the time when talked about.  Yes, privacy is a very important topic but you're applying the wrong concepts here.  The only private information we have from you is the email address you used to create your account with, and we've already agreed we aren't using that for anything.  The rest is stuff made on our server with our stuff, and we have absolute access to it.

Edited to add:
Another thing I should point out:  If a email provider decided to root through all your email, you probably would just decide not to use them.  So, they agree up front that they won't.  If you don't like the fact that your chat might be monitored at some random time, tough, don't play on our server.

[neko kyouran]

Going off of Bereror's post, if the new /report command logs the person that initiated the report, then why even care about having to type a name after the /report?  The way you have coded it, after the /report command isstarted, really, all those that interact with the reporter can be considered the reportees.  Not saying that GMs aren't smart enough to figure out, but they'd have to sift through all the text done by various individuals and find which character(s) the /report command was aimed at.

Also, as it is stated, the reporter may not have haerd but a few lines of abusive chat, done the /report and walked away from the abusive player.  Thus, under this system,  GMs would only have those few lines to go off of.  It makes more sense to keep the old way of how the /report worked, that is, start logging the person beign reported.  Just have it be retroactive, so it saves a nice history.  That was what was generally agreed on by the majority of people when the first conversation about it poped up.  Hope this makes sense. 

[DaveG]

Neko:  Yes.  That's what it's getting changed to.  We already said we're going to have it changed to log the reportee and just be retroactive.

[Bereror]

Going off of Bereror's post, if the new /report command logs the person that initiated the report, then why even care about having to type a name after the /report?

It is used for the name of the report file: "report_chat_Spammer_by_Reporter.log".

Also it is stored at the beginning of the file to give GMs an idea, what is going on:
"Starting to log Spammer
Log by the request of Reporter"

[neko kyouran]

Ok, thanks for the carification.  I read Miss K's post stating that earlier in the thread but then Bereror came in and stated his post so I wasn't sure which way the /report command was going to be used.  Then the thread moved towards privacy concerns, (I'm agreeing with you on that subject btw, Dave), so I wasn't sure.  Anyways, thanks for the clarification.

@ Ber, ah, I see.  That makes sense then.

[DaveG]

By the way, for those who might be confused as to why the automatic assumption is no privacy:

There are exactly 2 posibilities here:
1) You have an assumption of privacy.  We're not allowed to access or even incidentally look at portions of the data on our own server.
2) You have no assumption of privacy.  We're allowed to access our own stuff.

The first makes no sense, therefore the second is the only logical assumption.  Any deviation from that required prior agreement between all parties involved.

The more general statement is that you always assume the negative.  There are no giant purple monkeys running havoc on the world, unless I have some evidence to the contrary.

[zorbels]

It always confuses me when people start talking about privacy and rights on our server.  You have none.

What DaveG is saying is very clear.

What I can't understand why people feel they can do and say and have control over this project and feel justified in doing so. Then turn around and act surprised and offended when they are told different. Or worse yet argue it. That fact of the matter is, would you like to have spent five years on a project with a game, do all the hard work, lay down the rules, only to have the testers of that game take control of it and tell you what to do? I think not.

If people feel their privacy is being invaded even after the devs and GM's  have told you otherwise, then don't play the game. It is as simple as that. This /report is put there for safety or people who maybe harrassed. Further more I can't understand what people would be so concerned about when it comes to privacy? Devs listening in to your conversation? Well I highly doubt they care to read those logs as I think they have lives and are busy with this project. You don't want the devs to know you are planning with your character? You are discussing personal information and don't want others to know? Well then get msn, skype, yahoo, whatever type of messanger and discuss it there. After all you should be playing the game right?

Over all this game does not belong to us testers. We have been invited to help on this project. Were are able to make suggestions and have input on issues concerning the game. In no way do we have the right to damand, because the simple answer to that is leave the game then if it is a problem.

In my opinion this all boils down to people who don't like being told no and having lack of control. Well that's life.

[DaveG]

Well said Zorbels.  There've been lots of people around here assuming some odd levels of authority.  I'm not so much offended as just plain confused as to where it's coming from.  Don't take these things too seriously, and don't assume that it's "yours" unless you actually contributed to it.  Just test and play the game and be done with it, and if you want to contribute, be my guest.  But don't start ranting like you're somehow running the place.

Yes, I know people don't like being told when they have no control, but you simply don't.

[Seytra]

Something I seem to have to clarify: I fully agree that everything except /tell and /group is public, and I don't have real issues with that being logged and reviewed. That was not what my posts here are / were about.
My issues really just refer to /tell and to a lesser extent to /group, and I dont think it's unreasonable to have concerns about that.
It is an issue whether to have that available for GMs to sift through by default. It may be necessary in some cases, but it might not be in others. To give blanket permission to GMs isn't a wise thing to do IMO, because it's comparatively hard to check on the GMs. Not limiting the power of your guards to the extent truly necessary is not wise.

Regarding "the only private information is the email address": I don't think this is true. It is personally identifiable information, but private information AFAICS includes anything that is not supposed to be made public. This, obviously, means PMs and /tells.

The "If you don't like it, don't use our server" is a bit simplistic IMO, but the real message that people should be made aware of is "If you don't like it, don't use our server for private matters". This, though, will still not include "private" RP which might be conducted with and intended for only very select players, nontheless being fully IC.

What I want to see is not a grant of full privacy, but a "only if necessary for ensuring proper operation of the game, including maintaining an enjoyable environment" sort of statement, and an effort being made to actually not view /tells unless truly necessary, which would be helped by the "display /tells only upon specific request" I proposed.

Oh, and BTW, I feel that I have been contributing by raising this issue (Edit: and the amount of constructive feedback proves that I'm by far not alone), as it may lead to a more concise policy. Yes, it is correct that you guys own the place. However, once you have more people in, not only on player side, but also on GM and even dev side, a viable policy is needed. Otherwise, people won't feel at home / welcomed in PS, as without a policy, there will be "incidents", and no way to deal with them. Edit 2: I think that that's by far not too much to ask, especially not since the intent is clearly along the same lines.

[DaveG]

Yes, we need an official policy.  Basically just saying something to the effect of "you have none, but we won't plaster your chat publicly".

I'm sorry, but I'm using the word "contributing" differently than you.  Everyone who tests and reports bugs is also contributing, but they don't go out and actually fix them.  Pointing out something and spending days upon days actually fixing it are completely different things.

[Karyuu]

It's not that hard to check on GMs, really. Our own commands are logged all the time. If it would make people feel better, I suppose logs can be off-limits to all but the highest and the dev team, to prevent any "newbie" GM from sifting through them for interesting gossip.

However, there can be a lot of abuse carried out through /tells - I've caught people and had people admit to it - so it is necessary to include this when it comes to reporting. I'm not quite understanding what suggestion you're written in regards to handling this - can you elaborate just a bit more? :>

[DaveG]

Yes, I also agree we should be restricting logs to at least GM2 or GM3.