/report and even more exciting!!!!!

[Seytra]

There've been lots of people around here assuming some odd levels of authority.  I'm not so much offended as just plain confused as to where it's coming from.  Don't take these things too seriously, and don't assume that it's "yours" unless you actually contributed to it. Just test and play the game and be done with it, and if you want to contribute, be my guest.  But don't start ranting like you're somehow running the place.

I don't think I've assumed any sort of authority, nor have I been ranting AFAICS. Yes, the levels of contribution are different, I didn't deny that. Still the way I see it is that you want for input like this, as there is a board and a wishlist, for good reasons IMO. Disregarding syntactical differences and choices of words, all I have done (or intended to do) is to raise an issue which I (and obviously others, too) find quite important, and proposed, like others, ways to improve the situation.

@Karyuu: Sure. I've said that /tells should not be viewed unless necessary. The need to actually log them obviously is there. So whose /tells must be logged and when / how shall they be made viewable?

IMO the /tells of the one reported should be logged. The tells that were exchanged between reporter and reported should be displayed within the normal log viewer. However, the remaining tells, (those to or from the reported by some other than the reporter) should be hidden unless explicitely requested by the reviewing GM (and limiting it to higher GMs is good as well).
That way it is ensured that "private" things are viewed only when required. It won't stop abusive GMs, obviously, though if these "requests to view" are logged as well, then it may not get abused easily.

After all, the initial drive to log the reporter, not the reported, was to protect the privacy of the reported. This system would do that unless abused by GMs. It might be possible to require a second GM to agree to the tell viewing, though that might be too much overhead to be feasible, and could also be abused.

If the reporter is being abused in /tell, and wishes to have that directly available to GMs, then "/report <name> full" could be used, which would then display all /tells to and from the reporter by default.

Whether or not to log the non-/tell (and possibly, non-/group) of the reporter is of nearly no concern to me, as it is, as has been said, already public.

[Anne Ominous]

All sounds well and good. Appreciated the edit clarifying that it is retroactive(; i understood next 50 posts meaning if i am an offender i just go '/who game' to see if a gm is actively monitoring, and if not i can count to fifty in public then call the person a name for reporting me). The reasons I see for people being hesitant to report based on actual privacy are as followed (based on my (and others') experience/s):

-1) having negative opinions of gms. I've had issues with the way a gm is talking to a player (usually a noob) on multiple occasions. I would be very hesitant to report someone right after /telling someone else they shouldn't take the way they are lectured at personally because some gms have god complexes and power trips. [even posting this, if not for this bracketed comment, i would expect a reprimand of some sort...even with this part, i still anticipate one].
I know some of these may seem insane. inane. or for whatever other reasons not worth mentioning.

That's it. That's the only valid reason i can think of why people respecting ps guidelines etc would have to be genuinely concerned about privacy when reporting to a gm (unless thay are just shy or some such silliness--but like i said valid)... Some may be unclear on policies & fear they did something wrong too, but like i said, the above reffers to those who have been actively respecting all ps policies...

BUT--

I had a friend who saw someone several times over the course of more than one gameplay session: arrive where groups of more than one player had a mob camped; walk up then either kill it over & over without asking for a turn nor letting the others get one--or ASK, but then kill several times in a row, or constantly skipping every other waiting player so every second kill is his... Before reporting to a gm (as none were on at the time) my pal challenged the guy to a duel, which was obviously rejected, then called the guy a "pussy" -- [now here he knows he was wrong for using a modern word in character (even tho there is a race of pussycat people)] --  the ofender started to claim to be an alt char of GM AND multiple well known players & saying he would have my buddy's account banned  & character deleted etc...
long story could be far longer...
Eventually my buddy reported this to a gm he was aqquainted with who told him he'd gotten multiple complaints about the same offender & to send the log... He sent his chat log in...

Point is: guess how this got resolved?

My buddy got invited into a group with multiple gms, players, and the offender. The offender littereally wrote that he was laughing at one of the folks in the group who he had impersonated-- then cursed every other word, like 'o i'm so#%$ sorry you GMs, last thing i meant to do was %^$# off a gm, i was just %$^# defending myself I am so %$% sorry. this %%^#%^sucks ' (not a direct quote) and kept using total sarcasm to make fun of everyone who took the convo seriously. . .
. . . I'm gonna reduce the story more because it's really hard not to name names & getting way long while leaving stuff out. [I know this is a confusing way to tell the story-- I have a copy of the portion of log pertaining to this but don't want to send it till i can get permission from my buddy to paste from it]... to summarize: the guy did equivalent of apoligizing while spitting in everyone's face. Then my buddy got told that HE-MY BUDDY, had to aploigize & that HE was going to be under probation, and should never insult anyone at all ever in the game no matter the reason at all; in character or out. Since hearing about all that it astonishes me that he still even plays. He explained to me that his new way of dealing with problems with other players is to just ignore them, never report them, at most warn his friends they may want to avoid the person.

ALL that to say: I also adopted his philosophy after reading what happened. Who in their right mind goes to the authorities if they're gonna cause you more trouble than ignoring someone? (not to mention more trouble to you than the person you're reporting)... Sure we all want to improve the community, but at our own risk??... let someone else make the report; assuming someone else can guess when an offender is lying about being a gm or other person of authority's alt... and let them take the hit of being investigated if they do anything other than shut their mouths & send a report.

So evidently, whether you report thru a command or sending a log or just a tell, you are putting YOURSELF up to (what seems to me) possibly more scrutiny than whoever you choose to report. The problem here isn't the report/reporting system itsself; it's how the person making the report is essentially treated as an equal (or worse) offender to whoever they are reporting.

[It reminds me of rape laws & how the victim can't be put on trial. or rather it reminds me what things must have been like before those laws passed; blaming the woman to say she was asking for or inviting it; using the fact she had one rape case before as a defence for the person she is attacked by next... I'm not comparing in game offences with rape: I am comparing one instance of criminalizing a victim (in cases where a victim is often the only witness/one to report it) to an instace of criminalizing whoever witnesses & reports an offence (victim or not).]

Uggh... I'm hesitant to even hit the 'post' button for fear I will get a huge pile for posting so honestly. If i do, it tells me that i should probably apply the philosophy I currently apply to reporting players, to making posts on the boards. hopefully by the time I have to defend this post I will be able to ask my buddy & get permission to post his log.

To be clear tho. The new system with the command etc seems IN NO WAY WORSE than any other system i heard of. in fact it sounds like it could be better... like leaving a message on police answering machine rather than having to mail them a letter... Problem is: if the justice system still penalizes the person for reporting an offence either way it changes nothing of import.

I would NOT have posted this as a reply to the original post in this thread. I am posting this because many nay-saying replies seemed to be percieved as revolving around notions of 'privacy'-- when to me it appears what is done AFTER report/log is made/sent (and how the sender is regarded/treated/investigated) is what they have concerns about.

[i am so gonna regret opening my mouth on this one at all   ]

[Karyuu]

Whew! That was quite a read, Anne

There is no way that I can reply to every point you made, but just so you are aware - we do have a way of reporting inappropriate GM behavior. If you feel that an action was done unfairly, you do have a means to raise the issue and make sure that the problem is understood and similar won't occur again if a GM was in the wrong. Click on the Reporting Abuse link in my signature for further information, and feel free to ask any questions you may have. Players should not ignore issues, but pursue better resolutions if they have the opportunity.

Moreover, we're not tyrants We honestly don't care if a player says something mean about this GM or that, as long as they aren't spreading lies/rumors or are cursing or making serious threats, etc. We're not going to sift through logs of someone to find that they said "GM [NAME] is an effin' pain. They are completely ruining my experience, and this has been really pissing me off lately," hunt that person down and give them a lecture, or worse. That's not our job. People are free to think whatever they want, even though as a team we want them to have positive thoughts. So while I can definitely understand the hesitation in sending a report in this case, we're not going to go around controlling opinions about PS staff, as long as it isn't damaging - as purposeful lies would be, for example.

[Seytra]

[i am so gonna regret opening my mouth on this one at all  ]

Well, it indeed has been stated that issues with GMs should not be discussed on the boards. This is technically not doing so, and instead citing an example in order to make a point.
Anyway, I haven't had such issues with GMs yet, be it because I don't usually camp MOBs, don't usually call GMs in for share-unwilling spawn campers, or that I was just lucky. Be it as it may, it looks like a reason to "limit the power of your guards" (GMs).

[Janner]

By the way, for those who might be confused as to why the automatic assumption is no privacy:

There are exactly 2 posibilities here:
1) You have an assumption of privacy.  We're not allowed to access or even incidentally look at portions of the data on our own server.
2) You have no assumption of privacy.  We're allowed to access our own stuff.

The first makes no sense, therefore the second is the only logical assumption.  Any deviation from that required prior agreement between all parties involved.

The more general statement is that you always assume the negative.  There are no giant purple monkeys running havoc on the world, unless I have some evidence to the contrary.

 That is as clear as mud 

 Also a point to note hear it is stared on my private computer also, so ditto that makes it private to me. Just to let you know 

[DaveG]

Seytra:  The main point I'd like to make in response to that, is that there's no reason to overcomplicate this thing.  Just do /report and it logs stuff.  I don't care if someone wants us to have it or not, we're not going to filter through stuff, we're just going to log what we want and be done with it.  It's not a big deal.  There's simply nothing here to care this much about, and nothing involved that really needs any extra care.  It's just logs, and we can log anything we feel the need to.  (side note:  it annoys me quite a bit that we really need this sort of stuff)

By the way, my comment on people assuming unwarranted authority was only mildy directed at you.  Yes, I think you're assuming there's something at issue here that is not, but there've been plenty of people going way overboard with things recently.  The prime example was Janner somehow thinking that it could be illegal for us to keep track of advisor points without making the tally public.  This sort of weird stuff has been popping up more and more on the forums, and it just beweilders me.  (I could go further and list names of people who go waaaay too far down the "this is the players' game" path, but I don't want to spark a flame war here...)

Anne Ominous and everyone on this forum:  If I have to maximize my window to read your post, and it still barely fits onscreen, it's too big...  >.<  Be concise people!  Don't ramble if you want to get your point across.

Janner:  Using your logic:  Your post is also on my computer, therefore it is my private property.  Simply put, if it's ever public it's never private afterwards.


About crappy GMs:  Yes, they have existed.  Not much we can do about that sometimes.  They're people too.  We have a ranks system, and they only get access to the commands and abilities they need and are allowed to have.  If a GM ever abuses a command or their authority, then guess what... we've got another use for the /report command.

[Janner]

 A tells is not public it is sent to a player not to the server, so if you wont to get technical it not public property.
 But i do see the need to access it if a player is being rude ect. So I give my permission to accesses it in my case if needed 

[DaveG]

No, it's not public property.  It's a message sent on our system, so it's our private property.  (using the word "property" loosely)

[Janner]

 From players guid:
 
 Talk to someone privately. With this command you can send text only the person you specify can see. It is possible to use /me and /my in tells, eg: /tell recipient /me sits down

 So its not private to me and the player I am sending it to, better take care what I talk about then 

[neko kyouran]

Really, you shouldnt be talking about anything you don't want other people to know through a game's chat in the first place.  Private in the context you quoted is referring to something you want to tell someone but not clutter the main chat with it, or say something to only one other person and not let other players see it.  That doesn't include devs or GMs, its thier job to police, so they need to see tells, else they couldn't do their job to the fullest potential. 

Bottom line, don't type anything you don't want someone to see, especially through a public game.

[Verrliit]

Conversations that are not in /say or /shout, have an expectation of privacy, for exactly the same reason that Emails and private chat sessions do.

They have a limited intended audience, that is not public.

That they pass though the Laanx server is irrelevant, and it is no different than any other mail or chat server.

There is an expectation that the messages will not be intercepted, except perhaps by law enforcement officials, who first must show just cause, and obtain a warrant from a judge to allow them to do so.

So no, just because a message passes through the Laanx server, it does not make it legal for someone not a party to the communication to log or intercept it.

[Kerol]

I just had a late-night thought 

What about logging retroactively 50 lines and till logout of the one who is reporting, not filtering specific channels, not even warning the one who is the target, but giving out a system message "the report has been stored to review in ../planeshift/logs/reports/". With the command /reportstop you can stop the logging before actually logout; with /reportsend you send the latest report done by you and with /reportcancel you can delete the latest report by you from the server (not the client).
If someone is already sure he has no concerns and wants to get rid of a n00b, /report n00b; wait a bit; /reportstop; and directly /reportsend. If someone isn't sure if it is worth the hassle afterwards or the mess got cleaned up already and the /report was in vain or the player has issues about his privacy, just read the report which is stored on the client (and also on the server, therefor not modifyable) and /reportsend or /reportcancel.
With that players could review their own reports before they are sent to the GMs. That solves all privacy concerns, makes it redundant to repeatedly /report and reduces the number of false alerts. Having that, there would neither be a problem to have all GMs looking through the reports nor the reporter would be left in darkness what actually is in the report and reviewable by the GMs.

Enough late-night/early morning thoughts >.>

[Janner]

By the way, my comment on people assuming unwarranted authority was only mildy directed at you.  Yes, I think you're assuming there's something at issue here that is not, but there've been plenty of people going way overboard with things recently.  The prime example was Janner somehow thinking that it could be illegal for us to keep track of advisor points without making the tally public.  This sort of weird stuff has been popping up more and more on the forums, and it just beweilders me.  (I could go further and list names of people who go waaaay too far down the "this is the players' game" path, but I don't want to spark a flame war here...)

 Pardon I never said that, get it right, I was refering to why I think the way I do, not saying it was iliegal. To clarify in my country all I have to do is ask and I will get acscess to it, info stored that is related to me. This includes all files the police have on record of me.

 I consider anything Janner says as me as it is me typing and playing him.

[Karyuu]

Overreacting.

Everyone.

/tells will be logged and a Privacy Policy with a clear explanation will be added. If you don't want the GMs to see something or other, don't use the game for it. I don't understand why people fight against something that can help the game so much, when they really have nothing to defend. Nobody cares what you type as long as you don't break any rules. You don't, the log is thrown away. You do, the report function was made just for you.

Anyone who makes frivolous reports for no reason will find themselves with severe consequences to make sure it doesn't occur again.

You're not sending private emails, you're using our server which has never offered a concrete agreement to your "privacy."

[Janner]

Would like to point out I am not fighting the reason as i agree with it, I don't agree that it is not privet.

 Erm your server ? Thought it was Laanx Fragnetics.