/report and even more exciting!!!!!

[Karyuu]

Fragnetics provided the server for our use - as long as we don't kill it, we are free to use it however we want. So yes, it is our server.

*edit*

It's very possible that we'll just log the /tells shared between the reporter and reportee, and ignore everything else. That way people don't have to worry about any other private interactions, but still catch harassment if it happens.

[Verrliit]

Fragnetics provided the server for our use - as long as we don't kill it, we are free to use it however we want. So yes, it is our server.

It is irrelevant who owns Laanx.

Only a person who is a party to a non-broadcast communication is allowed to intercept or record it.

The corporate exceptioon is where the computer that originates the message belongs to the corporation as well, and they are keylogging it.

The players' computers do not belong to you, so this does not apply.

In other words, if a GM is monitoring /tells without the knowledge or consent of any who are a party to them, then they are quite probably commiting a crime.

If PS is designed such that any GM that feels like it, can be a voyeur, and eavesdrop, then Talad and the Devs of PS could be accessories in any criminal prosecution that might result.

Finally, if a player has to chat outside of the Laanx server in order to be private, why would anyone want to use the Laanx server for anything but /say?


(ps:  I second Kerol's proposal for the proper function of /report.)

[Karyuu]

Verrliit, it's like you haven't read much of anything posted.

"Privacy Policy" implies that players have to agree to such terms before playing. Not all GMs will have access to reports. If a player needs to discuss private issues such as family finances, drug-abuse, or similar, they should do it out of the game. The game was not provided as an OOC chat medium.

Perhaps you can paint us a scenario in which a crime is committed and the devs become accessories to that crime through /report?

[DaveG]

Janner:  For the billionth time, personal data is data about you, the person.  The closest thing we have is an email address, which we don't use.  The law you quoted simply doesn't apply.  Just read the thing you linked to:

     "personal data" means data which relate to a living individual who can be identified-
           (a) from those data, or
            (b) from those data and other information which is in the possession of, or is likely to come into the possession of, the data controller,

We have an email address (usually a junk one) and... that's it.  We don't know who you are and nothing we have is related to you, a living individual, therefore nothing we have is "personal data" based upon that law.  You have no right to demand to see your stupid advisor points tally, no matter how much you want to, for whatever strange reason.

Verrliit: I'm sorry, but what you just posted is mildly insane.  "criminal prosecution" for looking at a /tell?  You'd be laughed out of a courtroom.  You have no legal expectation of privacy unless agreed upon.  When you call tech support, it tells you "this call may be recorded" and if you don't like it then hang up.  However, what in the world could you possibly say to that tech help guy that you couldn't stand to be recorded?  Same here, we're not forcing you to use our server, and if you don't like the fact that logs can be taken then don't play.  And if you really need some chat to be private... so private that no one around here can incidentally hear (and why would we even care?) then what in the world are you talking about?!

Simply put, you have no idea what you're talking about.  Do you not see how insane it'd be if there were parts of our server we were allowed to look at and parts we weren't?  That'd mean such stupid things as it'd be illegal to look at or even make a core dump when it crashes, as that would contain chat messages at the time.  It's our system, and we dictate its usage.  You simply have the choice to accept it or not.

[Vengeance]

Actually, please DON'T accept it.  :-)

You don't have to play this game.... you could show us you mean business by boycotting us....  :-)

- Venge

[Syilph]

I don’t know but I seem to miss a point here. Will the chat be logged all the time or only if you are /reported? If it is the later, what’s with all the ranting about privacy? You got reported for braking a ingame rule so, as american police would say, everything you say, can and will be used against you. By braking a rule you can have no claims to anything regarding the game. It is that simple. People won’t log others for fun, they will do this only when they feel offended by others and when that happens it is your fault not theirs.

PS: By saying "you" I mean all of us who play PS so there will be no confusion as to who is this reply directed to.

[Verrliit]

I will repeat:

If a GM is monitoring /tells without the knowledge or consent of any who are a party to them, then they are quite probably commiting a crime.

If PS is designed such that any GM that feels like it, can be a voyeur, and eavesdrop, then Talad and the Devs of PS could be accessories in any criminal prosecution that might result.

If these things are not possible, or are only done under court order, then there is no problem.

If I am wrong about the legailities of the situatioin, then there is no problem.

But before you say the players have no rights, or right to privacy, I would recommend a consultation with an attorney who specializes in civil rights.

Just in case.



(ps:  DaveG, the server is yours.  But I think the chat is not.)

[Janner]

 Once again you are not reading the  post correctly, I  was trying to convey the reason I think like I do, not saying that the data you have on the server belongs to me, personally i don't care how owns it, at the end of the day it is only a game.
 The point trying to be made hear that /tells should be privet, in most cases info is sent from one privet computer to another. It can be argued that you are in fact eavesdropping if you log the message, if i send a e mail through say BT. I am using there sever and services, going by your argument they have the right to read my mail. Don't think so do you ?

[DaveG]

The main point here, that no one is getting, is why does anyone care?...

Verrliit, please take off your tin-foil hat and examine the lunacy of your statements and their implications.  Many servers have far worse privacy practices.  We're logging a few chat messages on our server, and you know it's a posibility.  If we told you we were logging every thing down to your system specs, and upon running the thing it would delete everything on your hard drive, and you still ran the thing, tough.  You agreed to it.

Even if there was some nutty law that did exactly what you are saying, it'd be invalid and we could state so in court.  (there's not a single law related to this that can't be overturned; they're all bran new and in flux)  We have an absolute right to use our server in any way we see fit.

Janner:  I have no idea what you just said.

[Karyuu]

Allow me to repeat, Verrliit.

If a GM is monitoring /tells without the knowledge or consent of any who are a party to them, then they are quite probably commiting a crime.

Privacy Policy.

If PS is designed such that any GM that feels like it, can be a voyeur, and eavesdrop, then Talad and the Devs of PS could be accessories in any criminal prosecution that might result.

GMs will only have access to reported logs, not to every tell ever sent in the game. You still haven't provided me with an example scenario, as I requested. Perhaps if I ask you one more time.

[neko kyouran]

@ Janner:  From a legal standpoint, they do.  Unless stated that they won't as part of thier user agreement policy that you agreed to upon registering an account with them to use thier services.  Example, skype:  Read the user agreement policy sometime, it states that they have the right to look at whatever flows through their network.  (At least, this was the way it was a year ago, not sure if that has change since then)  Not sure about PS, is it stated in the user agreement policy what the PS team states about what they do with the chat that flows through thier server?  Never really looked myself.

Edit: And since you brought up the subject of email, if you have a gmail account, in the registering for one, you agree that google may read your mail, and store copies of it for thier own purposes (mostly marketing) and whatnot.   Reading the ULA sometimes can be quite the eye opener.

Last edit while I still remember it:  MySpace:  Reading the ULA you will see that anythin and everything posted to myspace becomes property of myspace.  You agree to those terms if you create a myspace account.  Again, it's all about whatthe ULA states.

[Syilph]

If there will be something like “By playing PS I voluntarily agree to donate my house to the PS team and my soul to Satan” in the license agreement and you click “accept” on that you have no rights to rant about anything when the devs will take your house. If the policy between the players and those who own or have rented the server states that all the communications on the server aren’t private then they just aren’t. Don’t get me wrong, I think that people should have the right to “intimacy” (notice the use of the term different from “privacy” that refers to personal data as DaveG said) but I also think that from the moment they chose to harass others or speak in a not appropriate manner OOC they also chose to give up that right.

[Vengeance]

Verrliit,

The idea that watching the server is breaking the law is so retarded I can't resist responding to your assertion here.  :-)

1. Google hit #1 when I searched on this just now was http://www.rbs2.com/privacy.htm which explains a lot about US privacy law.  In its initial definition part of it says "The right of privacy is restricted to individuals who are in a place that a person would reasonably expect to be private (e.g., home, hotel room, telephone booth). There is no protection for information that either is a matter of public record or the victim voluntarily disclosed in a public place."

2. The PlaneShift server is a public place, with no expectation of privacy.  The code is open source and anyone can see that the devs have access to chat data from there.  The /report command is public knowledge and is well documented in code, manuals, websites and forum threads like this one, as are the (lack of) privacy issues implied therein.

3. With no expectation of privacy there is no invasion of privacy.

4. These are all USA definitions I am using because I'm American.  I don't know where you are located, but perhaps Italian law should be operative here instead of USA law, since Talad is the director?  Perhaps Singaporean law should trump all others because the server doing the monitoring and reporting is physically there?  Perhaps the jurisdictions of the two parties involved in the leaked chat should apply?  Perhaps the laws of Sweden should apply because the mirror you downloaded your client from was there?  What definitions do we use?  I have no idea.  You seem to have a certain country's laws in mind as you write your vague accusations.  What country is that?

5. If you think Sony Online and Blizzard aren't doing the same thing, (or more by logging *everything*) then you are naive.  I could equally as validly argue that we on PS should log EVERYTHING anyone ever says permanently so that we have the audit trail if we are ever sued.  Imagine someone kills themselves and others claim he only did it because people in PS told him to.  So his parents sue PS (in what country who knows).  How do we prove what happened or disprove those stories?

I'd certainly be fine with logging all chat permanently.  That might be the safest legal solution for us, and disk space is cheap...

- Vengeance

[Janner]

 Thank you Vengence 
 No7 Content of e-mail in public systems are confidential. 18 USC § 2702(a).

[Josellis]

The problem here, is that they are NO privacy statement which means no rules. So the people who says "We are going into our privacy, you should stop it" aren't wrong, but aren't right. Same for the people who say "The DEVs/GMs have the right to review any/all the logs", they aren't right but aren't wrong neither.

So please, create at least a privacy statement which CLEARLY states that any message whatsoever sent using PlaneShift or on the PlaneShift server can be logged and viewed by any authorised person which includes but is not limited to administrators and game masters.

And why don't you have a License and agreement which is displayed in the forum and when installing PlaneShift which says all the things you can and cannot do (it would also include the player's policy).