Author Topic: /report and even more exciting!!!!!  (Read 11037 times)

LigH

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #105 on: July 01, 2006, 04:43:52 pm »
Well ... reading a report before sending it, could be useful for those cases where the target was convinced that his sentences were offensive, which is not tolerated, and he apologized credibly and will avoid it in future - so the reporter gets a chance to cancel the report. It is usually a good behaviour to "sleep a night before accusing someone".

The risk here might be that the { server / reporter's client } crashes before the report was sent.

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Nilrem

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #106 on: July 01, 2006, 04:49:44 pm »
I don't like the suggestion to filter /report in any way, as many people insult in public, no matter what. And as GMs are supposed to take players logs only as hint and not as evidence (as they can be altered), griefers will just do all insults in public.. and would be pretty safe as long as a GM isn't around and hear it by himself.
If only the communication between reporter and target is logged, it would be very hard for GMs to find out eventual missing pieces in many cases.

The filter suggestion affects the tell channel, as has been agreed is the one that most likely will contain intimacy issues. So only the tells between reported and reporter are the ones surviving. Chat and auction are left without filtering (unless after testing the system, its seen the need of trying to filter those channels too.)
Also, having the server keeping track of what is being said, ensures that the resulting logs haven't been altered by players.

As for your suggestion, I personally find that, adding more commands/parameters, complicates things. If one is being harassed, the easier for him/her to launch the report process is, the better.
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Seytra

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #107 on: July 01, 2006, 05:13:30 pm »
If the server just keeps on logging until the reporter cancels or logs out, then people will forget, meaning gigabytes of useless logs. That's why there must be a timeout. A command for retroactively cancelling one's own report (not reports on the target in general, as others obviously may have had otrher reasons to report them) sounds viable as well, and it wouldn't have to be used or known.

Anyway, a privacy statement on the website is preferrable to putting it (solely?) in the EULA, since the EULA is invalid in many countries.

However, let me state some things that I mayh notr have made clear yet:

The issue is not that I think that GMs are, by default, malicious voyeurs. In fact, I view the GM team as quite integer. Yet, there have been and will always be cases where that isn't the case. These will be individual cases, not general ones. Still, this should be adressed and it's effect reduced to a minimum, not least in self-interest of the GM team for maintaining credibility.

The filter would (or should) not apply to any public channels. In fact, it should aply solely to /tells. I think that is the intent, but seems to have not come accross correctly.
Logs aren't permanently stored, and instead removed when dealt with.

The combination of a privacy statement ("We reserve the right to intercept traffic and read it to maintain a good environment and proper operation, but won't do so without reason") and a logging feature of the sort described (with /tell filter and public logging) seems as a solution that is fair to everyone. It would indeed be stupid to try to restrict the devs / GM's access to things they reasonably need, like look at core dumps and /report logs. It would, however, also not be wise to needlessly reduce player "rights".
In light of this, it is my opinion that insisting on laws of some form or another is very counterproductive, since it not only creates unnecessary tension complicating things, but also is quite muddy since it is not clear what law could / should possibly apply. There is already way too much suing in the world, most of which could have been avoided by use of common sense on both sides.

Thus, even though under law it would likely be possible to construct an EULA/privacy statement combination that takes any right to privacy and intimacy from the players, doing so would be a mistake. Likewise, the opposite, forcing the PS team to ask for each and every line of communication, would be a mistake.
The middle ground everyone should be (and AFAICS is) aiming for is to log and look at only what is reasonably necessary, and it seems that throughout this (comparatively civilised discussion considering the topic and length) a sort of consensus about that has already been reached anyway, and that is:

Log the public chat of either reporter or reported (or both in light of the selective mute bug, which at least wasn't solved before laanx was taken down).
Also log /tells exchanged between these parties, via the filter.
Put that in the privacy statement, along with a line stating that while best efforts are made, it cannot be guaranteed that other things get reviewed accidently.

It would allow the team to do what is necessary, and be reasonable towards the players. Also, the team will not have to worra ybout possible abusers within their own ranks, not players in that case. What isn't there can't be abused, so it is, in a way, also a protection for the GMs.

It is my impression that this discussion has been far from useless, as it has given rise to issues that would likely have caused serious grief in the long run.

Verrliit

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #108 on: July 01, 2006, 06:06:55 pm »
The filter suggestion affects the tell channel, as has been agreed is the one that most likely will contain intimacy issues.

I think you will find that most intimacy occurs in /group.  It does for me.

Romantic RP can take hours.  No one really does that in /tell.

Additionally, if a player refuses to group with an abusive player, there can be no problem in group.

Worst case, a group of more than two, with an abusive player as a member, can disband and reform without the abusive player.

Abuse that is in private, must rise to a severe level indeed, to require intervention.


Guild chat is similar.

A guildmaster can kick a player, and players can leave a bad guildmaster.

I do not see the need for the system to log any private convsersation at all, unless it involves a RL criminal situation, or conspiracy.


Short of harrassment, I believe privacy includes the right to be merely obnoxious.
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DaveG

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #109 on: July 01, 2006, 06:17:14 pm »
EULAs exist to inform you of what's already being done, and not as an agreement.  It's already been ruled many times that no one can really put whatever they want in there.  The point is it's our server, and we by default have the right to do whatever we want with it.  The default situation is that players have no privacy and no rights, and it's arrogant to think that somehow you do.  It's also insane to think that somehow you should care.

Please people, don't pretend that there's somehow piles of legal precedent here valid in multiple countries.  Take all these laws together and everything is both legal and illegal.  We don't really care what some random country says; we'll go on American and British law because (like it or not) they have the most infulence over these things.  If some country made some law saying this wasn't allowed, good for them, they have not say in the matter.

The main point that's being missed by people assuming some sort of privacy or rights is the concept of what's "yours".  You're saying "it's my data" or stuff about "my character".  That's the fundamental flaw in your logic here, it's not your data.  It is and will always be our data on our network using our server, and we grant you the privelege of using it.  You're not even paying for it, and that wouldn't really change much unless you agreed to a contract to the contrary.  The privacy laws protect us from you.

The main reason we don't want to filter or agree to selectively log is because it'd be a messy nightmare.  We're not going to agree to have to tiptoe like idiots over our own servers.  And we don't care at all about your invalid privacy concerns.  You're ranting like there is something in your favor, and there never was.  You can't just claim privacy.  We're not going to handicap our ability to even look at our data just to satisfy a meanigless claim.

Additionally, you should remember that everything you do here is annonymous.  We don't know who you are.  Therefore no privacy laws apply, as they require personal data.

Unless someone can even come up with something legitamate that would need protection of privacy from us, and something we couldn't legitametly see, shut up.  You're spinning your wheels here without the slightest shred of backup to your claims.  You're missusing laws to apply them to stuff they have nothing to do with.  Sorry to break it to you, but we have rights too, and our rights protect our ability to use our server.

Verrliit:  Are people having cybersex in /tells or something nuts like that?  What in the world would be that private?  And, on top of that, how could you justify that it's still your stuff and you're somehow allowed to magically extend your rights into our server?  Especially because even if it was made public, it couldn't be traced back to you unless you were already stupid enough to put up enough personal info for someone to figure out who you are.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 06:19:45 pm by DaveG »

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LARAGORN

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #110 on: July 01, 2006, 06:26:17 pm »
Well put DaveG

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DaveG

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #111 on: July 01, 2006, 06:28:54 pm »
I can "put it" how ever I want, but I find it highly unlikely that anyone will either understand or stop ranting.

Let's say it again for those who missed it.  Common people, say it with me:

It's not your data.
It is our server.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 06:30:39 pm by DaveG »

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Verrliit

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #112 on: July 01, 2006, 06:38:58 pm »
DaveG:

I could be wrong.

But I believe that the laws that apply to every other chat and IM server, also apply to Laanx.

And I imagine that some of the married couples who play in PS, do indeed and quite appropriately have chat-sex, prior to, or instead of the real thing.

I also imagine that more than one RL love affair has begun in PS.

What is so nuts about that?
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zorbels

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #113 on: July 01, 2006, 06:39:38 pm »
It seams you mist my post saying ....

Janner it seems every where you post and every topic you talk about ... you say this statment ALOT. *Zorbels points above* Maybe the problem isn't the people who are reading your posts and trying to understand you and answer you. Maybe it is the way you are communitcating. I think it is time someone pointed out that maybe YOU are not the on who is clear. I read your posts in this thread over and over trying to understand whay you were saying, I still can't figure it out and I don't want to ask because the first thing you will say is what I quoted up top. Can I suggest one thing..... When writing a post could you maybe google some of the words you using and look at the definiton to make sure it fits into the sentence. WIth most of your posts I feel that I have to play the guessing game ... does he mean this? Or does he mean this? I am not trying to attack you in the least, I am only trying to help, but I am getting sick of seeing what is quoted above.

About the rest of the topic ... This is really so sad that so much time and thought was put into these foolish arguments. The Dev's, and GM's have stated many times they cannot just listen in to a /tell, the proper steps have to be taken first. Even if they could, what the hell are you hiding that you don't want them to hear in game. If you are that bothered by them having access to /tell and /group, as I suggest ealier in this thread, take it into a messanger. There problem fixed. This is a roleplaying game, not a secret government site. I still don't see the point in all this worry.

As for intimacy and the fear of the GM's and Dev being able to see it. Well I think that fear is healthy. You want to know why? Because there are alot of kids who play this game and there are also alot of sick people out there. I personally would hate to see a 12 having "intimacy" with another player who maybe a 30 year old child molester. So for the safety of the children, remember this isn't just a adults game and try not to be so selfish with your requests, keep their safety in the back of your head. As a mother I would appreciate that.

                                 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 06:45:19 pm by zorbels »
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Karyuu

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #114 on: July 01, 2006, 06:42:45 pm »
Verrliit, please read. It'll do you ever-so-much good in the end.

I do not see the need for the system to log any private convsersation at all, unless it involves a RL criminal situation, or conspiracy.

As I have said here before, I have caught, and have had people admit to, harassing others in /tell. It happens. It exists. It has to be dealt with. So you can close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALA" or you can listen to a GM who knows what measures are necessary to cover multiple bases and prevent abuse.

I love this selective reading we have going on in this thread.
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

DaveG

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #115 on: July 01, 2006, 06:52:29 pm »
But I believe that the laws that apply to every other chat and IM server, also apply to Laanx.
They do, and as I already said, the law allows us to do whatever we want with our servers.  Chat servers agree to give you privacy, and I think it's fair to say that they don't call it absolute.  (don't be so dumb as to think your AIM messages are guaranteed to be private; that's nuts)  Also note that Laanx is not a chat server.  Yes, I know people seem to act like that, but it's a freakin' game people.  Chatting should not be your primary activity.

I love this selective reading we have going on in this thread.
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Verrliit

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #116 on: July 01, 2006, 07:10:07 pm »
Verrliit, please read. It'll do you ever-so-much good in the end.

I do not see the need for the system to log any private convsersation at all, unless it involves a RL criminal situation, or conspiracy.

As I have said here before, I have caught, and have had people admit to, harassing others in /tell. It happens. It exists. It has to be dealt with. So you can close your eyes and put your fingers in your ears and go "LALALALA" or you can listen to a GM who knows what measures are necessary to cover multiple bases and prevent abuse.

I love this selective reading we have going on in this thread.

My very next line was:

Quote
Short of harrassment, I believe privacy includes the right to be merely obnoxious.


As you can see, we are in agreement about harrassment.

I believe you maye be guilty of the selective reading yourself.

But I doubt it was intentional.

And I remember missing a date stamp myself, not so long ago...

It was rather embarassing when Seytra pointed it out, quite properly, and with unusual sensitivity.  Smiley


Also note that Laanx is not a chat server.  Yes, I know people seem to act like that, but it's a freakin' game people.

The fact that this chat server is used to play a game, does not mean it ceases to be a chat server.

Quote
Chatting should not be your primary activity.

So much for RP...


Bah!  Sorry, hit the modify button instead of quote... It's all back... I think... >.<  --DaveG
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 08:16:26 pm by DaveG »
The Devs have invited us to play in their sandbox. The GMs keep us from spoiling each other's fun.  Be respectful, and thank them often.



Courtesy cannot be imposed by force.  Lead by example.  Be elegant.  - Dr. H. Lecter

Karyuu

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #117 on: July 01, 2006, 07:12:32 pm »
As you can see, we are in agreement about harrassment.

Awesome, so there is then no further reason to posting :)
Judge: Are you trying to show contempt for this court, Mr Smith?
Smith: No, My Lord. I am attempting to conceal it.

DaveG

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #118 on: July 01, 2006, 08:06:10 pm »
Chatting should not be your primary activity.
So much for RP...
This thread is beggining to annoy me, so I'm going to go the lazy way and quote what's been said a billion times:
Moreover, there are a lot of people who for some strange reason think that roleplaying means standing in one spot and being all "bardic." This is nonsense. Roleplay is doing anything in-game as your character, instead of the player sitting at the computer. You can train at the Arena for hours and be in-character. The only thing that matters, is that you interact as much as possible with the characters of other people, instead of the players.
Chatting furiously is not what I'd call a video game.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2006, 08:07:54 pm by DaveG »

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Xordan

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Re: /report and even more exciting!!!!!
« Reply #119 on: July 01, 2006, 08:49:07 pm »
I insulted no one, at any time.

Didn't say you did ;) I was speaking generally.