Author Topic: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?  (Read 11021 times)

zhai

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 391
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #45 on: July 03, 2006, 07:56:19 pm »
I was planning to create a guild before, but I didn't know it meant except of "a group of people who can talk between each other". And this seems to be the main definition for new people and even some "older" people.

I really like the idea of an age limit, "Sorry, but your account needs to be at least 3 month old" and I think 3 month is enough.

After, we absolutely need an approval system. Each new guild created needs to be approved by a GDM (Guild Masters). This would avoid a lot of the OOC guilds.

And I was wondering, why do you need to pay to create a guild? and what is the point of having at least 10 members to join in the next X minutes? Normally, a person should take time and think before joining a guild and not join it because you are a mac users, the choice is very easy in that case and you don't need to think.

I agree that guilds need to be beyond power leveling and "being the strongest guild" (whatever that means). But, we should not add any more restrictions. I believe that a lot of people have a enough experience with rp from other games and do not need 3 months to be a good rper in PS and find their place in a guild. And if GMs had to approve every guild we would have to go through a censorship process that could potentially kill RP itself. Don't get me wrong, GMs could sort this problem but it wouldn't be a cold/objective process as the existing one and that makes me wonder if the Dwarvesbane would've passed this barrier had they had to be approved. It was a very controvertial guild and many GMs expressed their disapproval when it started (and they probably wouldn't have allowed it) but it brought a lot of RP and many, many players had a blast being in their ranks, fighting against them or talking about them.

I tend to agree more with Verrliit here: let them do what they want, their own appeal and depth in RP will determine how long they will last. But, the Purrty Twins make a good point suggesting every new guild should know it takes more than high level fighters or a strong OOC connection to be a real guild. Maybe we can add this guild discussion in the update RP guide Karyuu is putting together, after all RP is what supports a guild over time.
:: The Flaming Feather :: Lady of the Rangers ::

zorbels

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2132
  • Screenshot Queen of PS - EX GM - Strawberries <3
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #46 on: July 03, 2006, 08:00:39 pm »
 :) I don't think the GM's would appreciate more work load. They have enough at the moment and the team isn't really big, unfortantly, but for good reasons.
   I've been outside, it's overrated and the graphics suck!

Zan

  • Veteran
  • *
  • Posts: 1944
  • Just a regular guy, with an irregular soul
    • View Profile
    • Photography
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #47 on: July 03, 2006, 08:31:37 pm »
I tend to agree more with Verrliit here: let them do what they want, their own appeal and depth in RP will determine how long they will last.

That is one of the main problems I've seen .. those guilds lacking in depth easily outdo most good RP initiatives and tend to outlive them as well. A normal thing since their requirements are lower.
Zan Drithor, Member of the Vaalnor Council
Tyrnal Relhorn, Captain of the Vaalguard
Thromdir Shoake, Merchant
Giorn Kleaver, Miner.

Grayne Dholm, Follower of Dakkru

RageMcCloud

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #48 on: July 03, 2006, 09:08:06 pm »
Quote
That seems slightly too limited

i dont exactly see how... because if the list has every possible RP reason<which sounds like a LOT but really isnt> and no OOC it would mean that ONLY IC guids could live... that is also why i asked for others to expand on the idea...
I fear that the world is getting more and more lazy with every passing day...

Common sense left on the 15th ship we sent to outterspace...

Anne Ominous

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #49 on: July 03, 2006, 10:14:45 pm »
Just because you work at a donut shop doesn't mean you're not the accountant.

Any and every guild could potentially have a person doing any & everything. To make arbitrary restrictions based on the overall idea of the guild strikes me as illogical. Is there a reason?

If a player denies its Guild's principles the extent to which they are will determine if/how fast the guild reacts & resolves it on their own terms.

If the Guild itsself is off base of what it claims to/should be, that is another matter entirely.

I think if it's justifyable to have a guild of only one species & only one sex by ingame reasons it should surely be understandable to make one based on having a common language. Not to name it based on such... But even still i could EASILY imagine a giuld called "the elvish toenails" or whatever, acceptable name because of the randomly generated noun at the end; but still claiming that the have a right to reject you for not knowing how to speak any elfish. Or a guild name actually in elfish or such... People have made threads regarding klyros language as well... And besides; In game you''re not even supposed to use proper english, you're meant to use yee olde english--meaning rather than asking if someone wants to "Join us for dinner?" you would say askif they care to "Partake in our sup?" which ps filters turns into "Partake in our how farest thou" anyways....

The point is; I really don't see why anyone would want to take away another player's chance to be in a guild full of people who understand them. I think the real OOC reason but no IC reason is just a lack of simple justification.

[Before posting (as i often try to do) i did a search for a keyword from this convo: 'language'.
got this thread:  http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=14700.0 And am sloowwwly trudging thru it...  (year old thread mind you so no need to go playing threadlazarus)... so far the most noteable part of the thread is [ « Reply #16 on: February 16, 2005, 07:48:18 AM » ]... and now [ « Reply #22 on: February 16, 2005, 01:22:39 PM »]... reply # 27 saved me a lot of thinking & frustrtion & typing, almost Dr Phil-like in its suggestion (in that it's not necessarily the smartest way to go, but it is the most realistic way to look at it, so it gives everyone pause...) ....by the way, tomyself and others who flame people for not searching... jeez try to get through these 6-pagers over a year old, and imagine getting no further towards a difinitive answer from a higher up than when you started... (dammit seytra if you were as smart as you seem to act like you think you are you would likely realize that most people aren't... :offtopic: )(no offence Seytra and the others who posted in that thread but after page 4 i skipped ahead to see if anyone of authority gave a difinitive answer beyond shout/help channels) ...ok forget this, redoing search "language guild" ...ok forget that... i started writing before doing about 2 hours of reading & sifting now, sick of it, just gonna post... and if you think this little part here is long you didn't try to search the subject quite so much, but sorry for rambling)]

What's wrong with suggesting a 'only accepts you if you speak some of our language' guild should just be rping "We grew up in isolated houses.. Our families spoke a forgotten language that was used by their traveling group. A group which got thinned through tumulduous times and has been scattered to the ends of th inner crystal [or some such] and only trusts its own..."

Even if you don't want to validate their language as another language of ps, call it a dialect of human/ylian or some such... or even a strange accent...

That way it all fits nicely for rp...I'm sure some of them learned whatever we are calling yliakkumese english. Be done with it. There is still a certain minimum english to be used if your guild wants to exist like a real guild ie: forums, quests, shouts... etc...

RageMcCloud

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #50 on: July 03, 2006, 10:26:16 pm »
well for one... i stated the reason like five times... and also... an addon... maybe you could choose more than one class... again expand on the idea dont just bash it down without any thought... and also you were exaggerating the limits of it... donut shop and accountant... what i posted would only apply to the donut shop part... also race and gender... what i posted only applies to the race part... dont exaggerate to make something look bad in part for the other person... it really grinds my gears...
I fear that the world is getting more and more lazy with every passing day...

Common sense left on the 15th ship we sent to outterspace...

zorbels

  • Forum Addict
  • *
  • Posts: 2132
  • Screenshot Queen of PS - EX GM - Strawberries <3
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #51 on: July 03, 2006, 10:36:32 pm »
Relax everyone. Sometimes people get off topic because a good point is raised. I think all to often people read other peoples opinions as flaming ...when it really isn't. I have been a culprit and victim of this myself. If you think something might be geared towards you then send a private pm asking that person if they meant to offend you before freaking out and bringing it into the public eye. No one cares about who is right or wrong like you might think. Just state your opinions and don't go off on how someone else words things. Ask first, don't assume! If it is a shot at you then duke it out in the PM's so the rest of us don't have to have  a thread that should provide some helpful information  but is filled with flaming or misunderstandings.

[edit] :)  RageMcCloud I just want you to know this post wasn't made just for you. Just in case. I meant it for everyone, I have both been a culprit and victim of these situations myself . I also may screw up in the future. We are all human and shiznit happens. I think we all have times when we need to just step back and re - think our approach on the forums. Believe me it helps. 
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 11:09:48 pm by zorbels »
   I've been outside, it's overrated and the graphics suck!

RageMcCloud

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2006, 10:41:03 pm »
sorry :(

EDIT: ok... so then... we really need a list of ideas suggested... and then just cross out or expand or something...
I fear that the world is getting more and more lazy with every passing day...

Common sense left on the 15th ship we sent to outterspace...

Beladoor

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 33
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2006, 10:49:58 pm »

Don't get me wrong, GMs could sort this problem but it wouldn't be a cold/objective process as the existing one and that makes me wonder if the Dwarvesbane would've passed this barrier had they had to be approved. It was a very controvertial guild and many GMs expressed their disapproval when it started (and they probably wouldn't have allowed it) but it brought a lot of RP and many, many players had a blast being in their ranks, fighting against them or talking about them.

I totally agree with you Zhai, fighting and RPing with DwarvesBane was a lot of fun for me as well. But the problem is for anyone to find the way to distinguish OOC and IC things. At the beginning for me, as I didn't know anything about RPing it was kinda difficult, but as I learned to RP and sharpen my character's way of thinking and behaving it turned to be easy...
Anyway, creating a guild is not just a "I wanna be the leader Yay" thing, it deals more with sharing with others and enhancing whole PS game and you can't just do that for the fun.
Beladoor Celadung
Dragon Chaser of the House of The Two Arts
The Dragon Council

Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins

  • Hydlaa Citizen
  • *
  • Posts: 492
    • View Profile
    • THE ROYAL HOUSE OF PURRTY
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2006, 10:52:18 pm »
hmmm please could we stick to the points and not point at others and say belittling comments - it is just a sign of ones inability to hold and vocalise ones own oppinions in a decent debate.  Naming someone only makes the thread about them, not the topic... so please avoid it and as already advised - try pm.

creating a guild on a RL basis of language... is understandable, but,  we reitterate, is not good RP practice to call it an ooc name... if it is 'shrowded' in PlaneShift reasoning then it may be justifiable to an extent... but as the common language of the PS race... is played by so many different language speaking players... its justification falls flat on its face, and becomes self defeating as a PlaneShift based group... and thus - quite nonsensicle.  As we said there are plenty of places to have ooc chat which can be run alongside the game.

Sorry [edit] the use of language as a dialect is a good RP idea.  But people who do that most likely have a sound RP reasoning too... unlike those who have just made it for reasons of their computer type or software setup...

The preselection idea for guild creating has some good points.. why not explore them... and see if they may be a good starting point for guilds to grow from?

And I agree, guild making is more than I want to be a leader... far much more, and very time consuming if you do it properly.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2006, 11:02:42 pm by Lolitra, Celorrim Purrty Twins »
Her Royal Highness Lolitra Hollinthy Purrty nods regally 'I am delighted to meet you' her tiara twinkles in the crystal light.
[had to remove my signature - as the image host lost it!!!!]

Anne Ominous

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 90
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2006, 11:09:39 pm »
I appreciate the apology rage, as well as the mediating zorbles-- getting so there's no time to shower between posts... If i am asking for a reason; it means something is unclear. Saying "i already told you five times" is an invitation to indroduce five other friends to the conflict, or at least the middle one of the five..

rage,

As far as the ONLY part directed at your class suggestion:
If someone is a merchant, that should not stop them from being a thief without having to announce it as a class. if someone is classed as a miner then they can still have very easy IC explinations for why they want others dead "less competition raises the market rate" or some such. <(THAT is an exaggerated example. ) The donut shop example was to say (and i thought it went without saying, but i guess not) almost every business needs accountants, even simple ones... understandable that any guild could use enforcers, even peaceful ones.

I did not say not to classify into classes, i was saying that your suggestion of restricting based on class doesn't seem logical, or any more fun or useful to the rp experience, seeing as a guild already needs goals etc & those can be unique, change over time, be somewhat secritive and whatnot.

The stuff i was saying about race & sex, as far as i know had nothing to do with you.
guilds do exist that discriminate based on your character's race & sex as it is, and it is entirely understandable--much as it isn't sonething i agree with--i was only using it to clarify that there are already a few cases of exclusivity to guilds based on arbitrary reasons of character selection relating to rp, thus it would make sense to arbitrarily rp justifications for linguistic issues which can never be fully homogenated transcending from RL...

RageMcCloud

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #56 on: July 04, 2006, 12:02:11 am »
well i think it is all just misunderstandings... the one thing that has been irritating me is that no one expands on the idea... they just bash it down... the suggestion wasnt meant to limit rp guilds... as i stated... it was suggested to dispose of OOC guilds...


expand...
I fear that the world is getting more and more lazy with every passing day...

Common sense left on the 15th ship we sent to outterspace...

Siofra

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 92
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #57 on: July 04, 2006, 12:24:32 am »
A lot of good points in this thread. I have to agree that disposing of poorly disguised OOC guilds (eg Macsonly, or UK-vs-POR  ;) ) is a good idea, especially in an environment designed to foster good RP.

However, enforcing the disposal of OOC guilds could be difficult. I think there is a quite a large grey area here - is it wrong for players from similar RL geographical areas to form a guild only for those people? They speak the same language and most likely play at the same time. This in itself would lead to quite a tight nit RP guild formed from OOC reasons. If they create the guild with a good in game background it would certainly help.

The guild creation rules here http://hydlaa.com/smf/index.php?topic=14312.0 seem to sum things up well.

RageMcCloud

  • Traveller
  • *
  • Posts: 21
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #58 on: July 04, 2006, 12:36:15 am »
well how about this... if someone goes in to a mass guild for OOC purposes... IE Same area... make it INTO ic... such as they are from the same area RL so say they are from the same area IC or same race IC and that is why they are a guild not because they live nearby IRL... the thing is getting the lazy, crappy, non-wanting-to-rp-yet-for-some-reason-stay-on-a-strictly-RP-game-which-really-mind-boggles-me people to change their OOC guild and make it IC for the same reason that it is OOC...

PS:it was hard to hit - and not space... i had to type slow... it hurt...
I fear that the world is getting more and more lazy with every passing day...

Common sense left on the 15th ship we sent to outterspace...

Denerynn

  • Hydlaa Resident
  • *
  • Posts: 66
  • A traveller in search of wisdom
    • View Profile
Re: Building a Guild or just belittling the World?
« Reply #59 on: July 04, 2006, 12:38:15 am »
I agree with most of what has been said, and there should be more/more effective restrictions for creating guilds. For example, I play another online RPG, Conquer Online. In that game, in order to create a guild you must be level 90, and you must pay a large sum of money. However, you can become a guild leader if the creator or the previous one passes on the leadership to you.

This was just an example, but there can be many ways of restricting guild creations. I find that getting the guilds approved by someone is a good idea, although it does have a flaw: a person could simply create a background for his/her guild, yet as soon as its approved, he/she could simply abandon that background. To prevent this, a special permission could be given to GMs, allowing them to watch what a certain guild's members are saying, and if he/she sees that its OOC, then they could take action against it. The problem with this solution, is that the staff is very limited, and I don't think many people would agree to spend their time doing just that.
I am sure someone can find a solution for this, as there can be many ways.

And remember everyone, we aren't perfect, and neither is this game, just as any other game. There will always be rule-breakers, hackers, etc. But yes, we can try to find ways of reducing their numbers, and preventing them from doing such things.
"Common sense is not so common." - Voltaire