Author Topic: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings  (Read 6391 times)

ramlambmoo

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2006, 03:29:33 am »
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One argument in favor of this that I remember was that if five different offers were presented in the auction channel at the same time, it would not only be hard for players to follow bids on this or that, but it would indeed flood the chat for others. I think at this point if some solution can be coded, it would be welcomed.

Is auction local or global?  If its local then I suppose thats just realisitic, because in a real auction you could possible have alot of people bidding at the same time.  If anyone in the city has to read all the messages, then it's pretty annoying.

What would be a nice feature would be some sort of a screen showing all those participating in the auction and their last, highest bid.

zorbels

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2006, 03:34:55 am »
when has anyone ever seen five different offers posted at the same time...?

What she is saying is it could happen. Never said it did. She is right though, it could very well happen. One suggestion I have is a roll with dice. Whoever has the highest role wins that bid and the others have to bid higher if they want the item.
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Karyuu

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2006, 03:38:49 am »
/auction is local, and I believe it has /shout range. Zorbels, is /roll local as well? That wouldn't work if people stood far enough apart - since the /rolls have to be seen to be honest.

Quote
What would be a nice feature would be some sort of a screen showing all those participating in the auction and their last, highest bid.

I'd like to see more suggestions like these. If anyone has ideas that don't involve actual auction houses, make them now and in as much detail as you can. For the screen/window, would it be specific to a single auction or would that work for all auctions in general? I think having several screens for separate auctions may become too much to follow, whether now or later. But I like the general idea.
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josephoenix

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2006, 03:42:34 am »
One argument in favor of this that I remember was that if five different offers were presented in the auction channel at the same time, it would not only be hard for players to follow bids on this or that, but it would indeed flood the chat for others. I think at this point if some solution can be coded, it would be welcomed.
(emphasis mine)

Actually, using the auction channel is the best way I can think of not to flood the chat. People don't even need to move away in order to carry out a conversation in /say, just switch from the "All" tab to "Chat".

Also, I remember from a while ago that DaveG was adding "reason" as a required argument for all GM commands that affect players. Did /mute get missed? Mute should show the reason for muting to the player as a system message, so they know what they did wrong.

My two cents.

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zorbels

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2006, 03:46:49 am »
Yes, Karyuu /roll dice is local. I think it is the same amount of distance that you would hear regular chat in the chat box.  :)

[Edit] Just tested with Illori to make sure and yes, dice is only heard local. Not like the shout.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 03:55:45 am by zorbels »
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Myrthe

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2006, 03:49:41 am »
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Actually, using the auction channel is the best way I can think of not to flood the chat. People don't even need to move away in order to carry out a conversation in /say, just switch from the "All" tab to "Chat".

problem solved. thanks jose. if they dont want to hear the auction, switch. if they need to use all, tough.

Karyuu

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2006, 04:20:18 am »
I think the easiest thing to do then (new-feature-wise) would be to be able to select which chat windows you want to see - for example you can make custom choices of "Chat", "Guild", and "Tell", and ignore everything else. Or "Group" and "Guild". That way you wouldn't be limited to just one, or all at once.
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neko kyouran

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #22 on: July 15, 2006, 04:46:39 am »
Heres a few suggestions I have.

To start it off,  rather than having a channel like most games I have seen, I'm thinking there could be an auction button one clicks on to see the various items up for sale.  It would be another button similar to the exsisting ones we have now (along the top/side, the guild, shortcuts, info, petition butons, etc.)  Upon clicking the button, it would bring up a window. One column in the window will list items currently up for sale.  Maybe there coiuld be a text box where the player is able to type in keywords, with a filter button, so that it would filter out the items the player is looking for.  Another column next to the item could be used for a minimal asking price set by the person selling the item.  And while we are at it, this wouldn't really have to be limited to monetary funds either, to extend on it, people could offer up a series of goods in exchange for the item they want.

Upon double clicking the item the player finds interesting, a new window pops up.  This is where the actual bidding for the item is done.  Similar to the description box of an item we have in game now, the item's name is across the top, the body of the window could be something like this.  The first area would have bid history of the item.  What the first bid of the item was, the second and so forth.  On the bottom, buttons, the first one could be 'add bid' which would bring up something like your invetory and another window similar to the existing trade window (this way you couldn't make false bids) The player would then select the items they wish to offer up, by dragging them from the inventory to the other window, and by selecting ok, the items offered would then be locked in the players inventory, so they can't get rid of them while the auction is going on.  Also, the window with the bid history would then update to reflect the players bid.  This would also trigger a system message to the auctioner, that their item they put up for bid has been bid on.  More on that in just a little bit.  Getting back to the bidder, next to the bid button, there could be a modify bid button, or perhaps, the place bid button changes into the modify bid button once they place a bid.  This would allow the player to then update their bid, in case they get out bid for the item, of if the auctioner sends them a tell saying they like the offer, but would like the bidder to add/change/remove certain items from the bid for various reasons.  Once a person places a bid, they can't withdral it to prevent people from inflating the auction.  Once the person bidding is satisfied, they can then close this window and go back to the main auction window to browse other items and such.  Also, to make it easier on the the bidder, the items they bid on could be in a different color/bolded/ or perhaps a check box in a third column  to indicate which items they have bid on out of the list.

When a new bid is placed that outbids the old one, a system message could be sent to the other bidders, telling them that thier bid has been out bid. Then, they could go modify their bid if they wish to. 

Another option is to not have a system where on bidder out bids another.  Instead, players place their offer on a specific item, and then the seller decides out of the bids which one they like best and then accepts that one.  Or, should they not find any bid acceptable, they close the auction without having the item sold.  In this case, the second window with the bid history wouldn't show who got out bid, but rather it would just list all the offers that have been made by varios players for the item.

On to the the seller side of it.  Once the seller decides that the satisfied with the offer, they can then mark thier item as being sold.  This way no one else can bid on it.  And the item then leaves the list of available items up for auction in the main window.  Similar to how the trade window works, the seller could then accept the offer and the two players items would trade.  I do see problems with this as with it this way, it would be more OOC than IC since the two players needent be close together to trade items.  Then again, this whole setup is more OOC than IC since you're using this magical system to trade items with other people you may never see.  Which is why, I'll propse a different solution to the /auction which is much less coding and more IC next.  After the auction for the item is over, the people that lost the auction would then be able to use thier items again for other things.  An interesting situation would come up though, if the seller didn't have the room for the items they got in return.  So if this happens, there could be a check before the seller accepts the bid to see if they have the room/carrying capacity to accept it without dropping the traded items, and if they don't pop up a warning about it and ask them if they still wish to accept the trade.

There would also have to be a limit as to how long an auction can go on.  Maybe, one week of IG time?  The time limit could be tweaked later.  This would prevent items staying in auction forever.  To make it a bit more realistic, perhaps if the seller leaves teh game, any open auctions they have automatically get closed without anyone winning.  And inorder to win, both the bidder and seller must be online to make the trade. 

To be a bit fancy, each sector could have its own auctions.  As in, if a player opens thier auction window in one secotr, they will have one list of items, but if they travel to another sector, they will see a different set of items in the auction window.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Now that method may seem a bit complicated, but more importantly it takes away form the ICness and brings auction even more OOC than they are now.  Really, the best solution is to have a in game auction house or an arean one can go to bid one items.  Prehaps, incorporating the idea stated above with a limited area would work.  As if someone tries to open the auction button outside the designated auction area, they won't see any auctions.  This would bring the window version of the auction comand much more IC as the player would still have an easy way to filter everything for sale throught the auction window, but it would still be IC for the most part since all the auctioning is done in a single place.

The other suggestion I have is a much simpler one.  But then again, it doesn't help to cut down on the confusion that the auction chat can have now, nor does it really help to bring the auction idea into more of a IC type of function.  But here goes anyway.

Simply allow the auction tab to be optional.  The system messages are optional, theres a way to not show them right in the settings inside the game, it could be done so that the player could have the ability to show/hide these messages as well. This way, only those interested in auctioning, would have the messages show.  And reading other peoples posts while I have been typing all this out, I see similiar ideas like this have been suggested.

I think that's it for now.  Feel free to rip this idea of mine to shreads, but I'd prefer structured critism if you can.

Oh, and let me know if you all need pictures, I can add diagrams to help understand the window concept better if you'd like.

« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 06:26:12 am by neko kyouran »

The Wandering Djinn

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #23 on: July 15, 2006, 04:47:21 am »
I think the easiest thing to do then (new-feature-wise) would be to be able to select which chat windows you want to see - for example you can make custom choices of "Chat", "Guild", and "Tell", and ignore everything else. Or "Group" and "Guild". That way you wouldn't be limited to just one, or all at once.

The online game Eternal Lands has a chat channel system pretty much like this, Karyuu... and it wouldn't surprise me if this sort of feature was on other games as well

http://www.eternal-lands.com/

Edit: Trying out link to a small screenshot of how Eternal Lands do their Chat Channels


« Last Edit: July 16, 2006, 12:33:45 pm by The Wandering Djinn »
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Bodacher

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #24 on: July 15, 2006, 05:19:31 am »
     I had hoped that the outrage over this wouldn't have gotten so big and so public in so short a time.  As it stands, I feel I have to step up and explain a few things about what happened prior to the auction.

     While it is true that the idea for it and the announcement about the auction in the forums have been around for almost a month,  I must point out that ONE of the GM's did approach me and discuss this situation a few days ago.  I won't post the log as that is not allowed, but what I took away from that discussion was that the GM's had met and discussed introducing this new resolution.  I was under the understanding that:

  • Our advertising before the auction should be done in the /auction channel, rather than in /shout, as we had been doing.
  • Bidding in the /auction channel was acceptable, as long as it was kept In Character but that it was slightly frowned upon.
  • The test auctions that both Proglin and I ran at separate times appeared to have a bit too much chatter in the /auction channel

     I approached Proglin about this and we discussed taking the bidding out of the /auction channel.  As we had not been told specifically NOT to do it, we decided that, not only was it easier for us as the auctioneers to keep track of the bidding when it is done in a different colour chat, it seemed to us at the time that it was adding to the RP atmosphere of the event, not detracting from it. Thus, we decided to keep it the way we had originally planned it.

     Being forced to take the auction entirely into /say (We were told by the GM at the event to take it to /group or /tell - How is one supposed to foster an RP atmosphere by taking the RP into /group or /tell where no bystanders can see it and join in?), totally changed the mood and atmosphere of the event.  To try and keep the auctioneer sane enough to keep track of bids, we had to ask all the people there to limit their /say chatter.  This essentially killed the mood, and prevented (in my opinion anyway) many from expanding on the RP and playing their roles properly. Some tried and a big THANKS go out to you for trying to make the event even better than it was.  Proglin and I would like to sincerely apologize to Anfa, as because of the unexpected changes, one or more of her bids got lost because of range issues and she lost out on getting a particular item she had her eye on, even though it was clearly within her means to pay more.

     To sum up, part of the blame for this fiasco rests solely on my shoulders, but I am in no way defending the actions of the GM who intervened, as I feel it could have been handled much better.  Hopefully the outcome of this will be  a better system to help promote RP events like this, instead of suppress them, which is what I feel happened here.  From the few latter posts in the thread I feel things are headed in the right direction.

Bod
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 05:38:17 am by Bodacher »

Zarj Prax

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #25 on: July 15, 2006, 06:28:30 am »
I used to be a licenced auctioneer in ny city...with that said let me point outa few things...

1: 95% of bidding is on inpulse.. a bidder see someone bidding and things like OH NO YOU DONT. HOW DARE YOU TAKE THAT FROM ME,or OH MY GOD IM GONNA LOOSE THIS BID AND I REALLY WANT THIS.. are just to name a few of things people get huffy about in a  bid..
2: bidding is to dive the price up solely to allow the posted client to get the MAXUMUM price one can for said item
3: items are bidding on to not just sell them but to get RID of them the seller/client wants it to be GONE.

so with all that in mind now and that being the HIGHLIGHTS of auctions...

lets review the auction channel(tab or panel whatever you perfer) was setup to AUCTION items form players. good idea, i might add too...
now there was an auction held. great interaction on ther part i might add too... now your telling me that it was held wrong that its flooding the channel/tab/panel by crying(*spelling* for calling an auction) an item and then acepting public bids on said items..oh boy someones really confused if your going to stop this this way...as it from the above post example of how the auction went...thats how an auction is held..and see my points above on how a bid is percived durring an auction..if tells witch are private are to be done then no its no longer an auction but a closed lets tell the price game...and cant evan be classified as an auction or best a closed or secret bid.

some ideas on how to solve this...

1: code a voice or operator system(as the chat interface is coded just like an irc i assume it be fairly easy to set up the auction chanell(as ill callit now) to be a moderated and operator controled channel..ie the auctioneer posts to a forum threed his wished time of aution(easy enoph to add a forum topic for auctions to be held type posting area...then or evan a acutioneer can also ask in the auction channelin ten mins auction blah blah...allow a code to be placed in to allow the actioneer to take over the channel...thus allowing only one bidding item at a time and not be confused withmulti auctions atthe same time...and then the actioneer has to take forlets say in this example biddersregister and get voiced...then the auctionneer closes registration and the auction begines...
easy to do with a few code changes... best suggestion in my book(opionion)
2: basicaly same rules aply but to conform to the wakey(yes i said waky tell rule by gms that are sadly mistaking on auctions) but in this case the bidders are again registered and then closed but all transactions ar ehelp by the fouintain or other area NO NOT IN THE PATHS BY THE TAVERN OR ANY PLACE LIKE htat a sucluded area of gathering this way it does not disturb others unless they want to be a partof it..another good place is behind the temple theres a area ( i thinkits a gasiboo or tableor fountian something along those lines) again empazizeing away from others...
3: rewrite code to be a closed system aloowing listings and bidding this wouldtake alotof time on the devs parts and would most likly not be implimented till last but a good idea(mentioned above) i dont like it as it will take too much to do with mysql manipulations and meny gui implimentaions let alone more core codeing too(might be missing something here but you get the idea its a big big deal to do)
so call it an auction if you will but your dead wrong if your gonna do it by tells and the way the gm's are saying...
side notes: i think it was serously wrong to not post the rules heck i still cant find um on a breif look for um, and not only give time for this but also to evan come up with it with out asking the players too...rules and things are to help the game not hiner it and i think it serously hindered the game play... another thing please post and give it time to be known...and take my advice from a guy that used d-dials (pre interrnet irc chat) and has run and coded irc servers... do not mute a person unless you are willing to ban the users FOR GOOD off the game as sometimes it comes to that..warn and talk to the player first dont just jump the gun so to speak...
i do not know what happened in this case but from the posts i read here thats how i percived it MAY of happened...if it didnt happen that way please take my advice GM's i almost got sued for muting a person and yes they almost got aeay with it...bu the arbitrator talking to the person and explained that is was MY server and he can do as he pleases but we can go thru with this and he may very well loose but he can resue you for what u are doing type thing...thats another story tho...just take caution when muting someone..the game is to have fun..not have ill will twords the gm'sor anyone else...enoph said about that...just my two tria(cents)

so take my ideas or lump them, love or leave um... just an idea and suggestions...
{i did not make this post to argue or hurt anyone just my thoughts and opnions... i dontmind you notlikeing it but do not flame me forit too as it can be taken the wrong way..please dont its met to point out things and to help *smile*}
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 06:32:33 am by Zarj Prax »

Vengeance

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #26 on: July 15, 2006, 08:02:06 am »
I totally disagree with this rule.  I see it as nothing more than GMs finding another way to be petty tyrants in this tiny domain...

I wrote the /auction feature, and in fact most of the entire chat system, and I'm here to tell you that the intent was that buying and selling use that because the people that are interested in that are interested and the people who aren't, aren't, so it should be easily filterable.  If the issue is spamming the "All" tab, the GMs should raise that to the developers, not invent ridiculous rules about not using a channel for its intended purpose.

I despair though, of ever getting the GMs to see that their job isn't to invent rules.

My $.02,
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neko kyouran

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #27 on: July 15, 2006, 08:12:10 am »
With that comment from a dev, I'd like to suggest this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience

I boycot this new GM ruling.  That doesn't mean I will purposely spam the /auction channel  (in fact I've never actually used it), it simply means, that on the rare chance that I ever do decide to use the auction channel, I will be responding my offerings for what is being sold in it, as opposed to /tells.

"Non-violent resistance implies the very opposite of weakness. Defiance combined with non-retaliatory acceptance of repression from one's opponents is active, not passive. It requires strength, and there is nothing automatic or intuitive about the resoluteness required for using non-violent methods in political struggle and the quest for Truth. "

--Mohandas Gandhi
« Last Edit: July 15, 2006, 08:15:24 am by neko kyouran »

LARAGORN

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #28 on: July 15, 2006, 10:23:34 am »
I was unable to attend todays auction, but was there for the last one put on by Prog and Bod. I have to say it was a very enjoyable RPing experience. The auction channel, was being used as it was developed for, and the chat channel was full of total RP interaction.
This blattent attempt at letting us know whos boss, is totaly totalitarian.

Correct me if I am wrong, but is it not the job of the GM to

Quote
* Developers have different goals and are not supposed to moderate the game.

                                                             NOT TO

I see it as nothing more than GMs finding another way to be petty tyrants in this tiny domain...

I despair though, of ever getting the GMs to see that their job isn't to invent rules.

All great truthes begin as blasphemies- SHAW
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LigH

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Re: Auction Channel and GM secret meetings
« Reply #29 on: July 15, 2006, 10:25:11 am »
With that comment from a dev, I'd like to suggest this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_disobedience

I boycot this new GM ruling.

Remember - PlaneShift is not a democracy. ;)

But I enjoy to see many constructive ideas here. So far we seem to have two main suggestions:

a) Limit the auctioning in the "Auction" channel to first offers, and continue in different channels.

b) Use the "Auction" channel for the whole auction, and have the people decide which channel to look at.

In my personal opinion, I'd like to support b) -- with an additional wish: Just like there is an auto-decline for duel challenges, there could also be a way to disable receiving the Auction channel. I still wonder why there is some room for buttons below the text edit line in the message window...

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