Auction Channel and GM secret meetings

[Tarel]

As i see that everyone is attacking me, for following a rule that GM's agreed upon.
I would like to publice the Gm's/Devs names, who were present at the meeting.

Talad (was online but away during the meeting)
Uyaem
Hadfael/Frostmorn
Bakuun/Karyuu
Xordan
Syilph
Kerol
Tarel

So you can see that there were Devs present at the meeting.
And they are now denying the Auctionrule, that they also agreed upon.
I see the involved Gm's/Dev's talking from both sides now.
At the meeting they could have made they're opinion clear and
it seems now, that they deny the Auction-rule, that is discussed and was agreed.

I am not allowed to give the transcript of the meeting, but i won't
take any damage alone, when it is discussed and agreed.
What i did, was no solo action, but was with approval of the above mentioned GM's/Dev's.

[Karyuu]

Xordan isn't always present - check your logs, he went AFK very shortly. He also never gave his "okay" on this, so it's not fair to bring him up. You might also remember a very heated discussion that took place before this agenda point was brought up - and I think at that point people just wanted to agree on something and move on. Yes I was present, and yes I too said "okay." And I'm feeling really guilty about it now.

So no, this is no blame of Tarel's alone, and it's not fair to single him out if anyone is attempting this.

This was a bad mistake of the GM team as a whole, and I'm really, really sorry that it caused so much stress and irritation for players. We had a duty to you that we inadvertently failed this time.

[Zarj Prax]

im very pleased that a GM said basicaly they were sorry... Thank you for careing about the game...

its hardto be policeor ruleinforcers...we must also as players understand this is a game to be enjoyed and that not all decisions are going to be a good one...

again thank you

[Drey]

Hadfael/Frostmorn

These two are not the same person. (just assuming that is what you meant seeing the way you set Kary out).

the things that go on in that channel when im not there to say no :p

[Cyl]

Now before anyone decides that it is time for a witch hunt: GMs are humans and humans make mistakes. The chain of events that led to this disaster doesn't extract a single person to blame for, in the end everyone participating has somehow contributed to this developement, and I hope we can stop the fingerpointing now. The only thing that is important now is a definitive answer: Is this 'new system' going to be pulled through?

frankly the guy who acted the most mature in this thread is drey

[Janner]

 A auction is done in a similar fashion as was done in game. [In the time we are suppose to be living in] it is called auction for a reason. so unless you intended to rule all are lives butt out and let it be run as a auction, also if some one spams or brakes the rules that were laid down in the guide then GMs do your JOB, I.E. be a police man, Just a bit of hummer hear if you are on line that is 

[Xordan]

I'm pretty sure that being afk and not reading the meeting logs means that I didn't ok it.

[Pip]

Xordan isn't always present - check your logs, he went AFK very shortly. He also never gave his "okay" on this, so it's not fair to bring him up. You might also remember a very heated discussion that took place before this agenda point was brought up - and I think at that point people just wanted to agree on something and move on. Yes I was present, and yes I too said "okay." And I'm feeling really guilty about it now.

So no, this is no blame of Tarel's alone, and it's not fair to single him out if anyone is attempting this.

This was a bad mistake of the GM team as a whole, and I'm really, really sorry that it caused so much stress and irritation for players. We had a duty to you that we inadvertently failed this time.

Sounds to me as if the meeting was badly conducted; who was the chairperson? How can anyone be counted as present if they are afk? If the meeting had been disrupted by a "very heated discussion" then no more decisions should have been made while feelings were running high, it was up to the chairperson to suspend the rest of the agenda for another time until the point in contest had been resolved not rush through the rest of the meeting just to get it over with. If these meetings are being conducted without electing a chairperson then you should be seriously considering this point. IRL no meeting which involves making important decisions and rules would be conducted without one. Meetings without a person in charge inevitably fall into chaos.

[Karyuu]

We are well aware.

I have already apologized, both on my behalf and on the behalf of the team - this is not a common occurance by far. We're not machines, we make (serious) mistakes as well, but the key point now is to admit it, undo the harm done, and prevent it from happening again.

[Ganinos]

I applaude those that have said a mistake was made here.  I am a former administrator of the RPGA's World Wide Living Greyhawk Campaign.  I was a Triad member for the Furyondy Region.  In any game, the rules have to be published 1st & a date set for their implementation.  If the players don't know what the rules are, how are they to follow them?  This in my opinion was the biggest mistake that happened here.  These rules where never published period.  We can't have a GM walking into the middle of something & saying that the rules have changed, weather the rule was agreed to or not.  It the rule was never published, it should never be enforced.

I am not sure how the structure of PS is set up, but from my experiences it is the Administrators, in this case the Devs, who should set the rules, & the GMs job is to enforce those rules.  I don't think it is a wise move to have the GMs making rules & then also enforcing them.  The admistrators could ask for the GMs input on rules or rule changes, but it should be the Devs who make the final decision on rules issues & the GMs responsibility to enforce them.

I strongly suggested that a policy be establish that states: all rule changes will be published in such a manner that the player base has a chance to review the rules prior to their implementation, and a date for such implementation set as to allow the player base a chance to review the rule.  It will not kill anyone to wait a few days for a new rule or a rule change to go into affect.

The players need to know what the rules are.  The only way to do this is publish them in advance.  Anyway those are my opinions on the matter as a player & a former administrator in a world wide campaign.

Gan, "Long Beard"
Leader White Dragon Clan
Dragon High Master in the Dragon Council

[zorbels]

@Pip: Sounds to me like you found the perfect opportunity to pick at the Gm's. Karyuu said there was already an apology. Not only that but I think it is up to the Gm team to organize and fix the problems of their system, as far as I know you are not apart of that team, and no one asked you for solutions. Besides you don't know the whole story, only the bits and pieces Karyuu and Tarel have posted in their posts.   

@Tarel: No one is flaming you or picking on you. We have all pointed out this was badly handled. I get that you were trying to follow the rules, but in the manner that you did it .... well it casued problems. I would like it if instead of explaining your actions, if maybe you would recognize that this could have been dealt with better. Everyone makes mistakes and they are forgivable. A simple apology and a "I will handle it better next time" would be helpful. Not pointing fingers at everyone else.

I think a lesson has been learned from all sides here. It is now time to move forward and learn from those lessons. If someone wants to set up a huge event I would strongly suggest speaking with the Gm's to make sure that what you have planned is with in the rules. I am pretty sure that the Gm's will be making sure that any new rules made will be made public to avoid this mess that happened the other day with the auction.

[Janner]

@Pip: Sounds to me like you found the perfect opportunity to pick at the Gm's. Karyuu said there was already an apology. Not only that but I think it is up to the Gm team to organize and fix the problems of their system, as far as I know you are not apart of that team, and no one asked you for solutions. Besides you don't know the whole story, only the bits and pieces Karyuu and Tarel have posted in their posts.   

 Like you she is giving her thoughts on the subject, or are you only allowed to ? She also never implied or said she was part of the team, this is a public forum and a solution to a problem is how i read her post.

 That said yes a apology was given, but the event was ruined and chaos for a bit this morning rained in auction as I was online a player put up a weapon for auction and was pounced on and told good job no GM is on or you would be for it, not that exact words were used but you get the idea i hope.

[zorbels]

Like you she is giving her thoughts on the subject, or are you only allowed to ? She also never implied or said she was part of the team, this is a public forum and a solution to a problem is how i read her post.

The topic is about the auction and how it was shut down. Not about how the Gm's hold their meetings.

I never implied she was part of the gm team either. Actually, I pointed out that she wasn't. Janner, I absolutely would never tell someone that they are not allowed to voice there opinion. Stop trying to take shots. I pointed out the obvious to your wife, deal with it, or better yet let her.

[Nilrem]

I think everyone has reached an agreement that the issue has been badly treated.
Once this point is reached, and seeing that all parts want to not commit that same mistake again, it's time to move on, and wonder about the future.

The question has been asked, I think in the 1st page, but has been progressively deluding.
It's time to give it back to life.
Do you think we need an specific coded system for the auctions?
That is what should focus our attention now.

In that sense, I'd say that I pretty much share neko's vision (great post, Neko) about the whole idea.
Implementing a thing that would deal with auctions is feasible, yes, and it would drive it in an automated way... perhaps too automated. Till the point that it can loose IC flavour.
Judging from the extract of log Zorbels posted (I wasn't present at the auction event) I must say that it seems it went fairly fine, with the current auction system.
So, while it's true it has it's limitations, the actual system is all text based, and by that, is open to imagination on bidders side. Having a window with the name of object in auction, together with the best bet updated in a label, with the chance to only put a number in there... I feel, as Neko, that it would loose flavour. Has ever been any real issue in an auction that would have gone better if an automated auction system had been implemented?
I think that, if the case arrives, that an auction ends on tie, the auctioner could then take those that equaled the last price, and talk to them, and surely reach an agreement.
And, if the day arrives when there are more than 1 person auctioning an object, we're all enough minded as to stablish turns to auction.

There is a RP chance in an auction (no with the current prices, I must add, those prices are, for me, entirely OOC) and perhaps implementing a system, would turn them into something more rigid. As if you look to the "spell book" but with bets, instead of glyphs.
So, to my eyes, the auction channel, as it is now, has enough potential.

If the playerbase feels the need of creating an automated auction system (special attention to those that attended to said auction, as well as the autioneers, since they must have more experience than me) then thoughts have to be put on it, for some time, before starting to actually code it, to ensure that, the most optimal approach is reached.

For the time being, though, my vision goes with Neko's.

[Janner]

 The meetings were brought up by a GM in this thread so yes it is part of it.

 Definitely getting old also read second part of thread title " GM secret meetings"