The Team and the Community

[DaveG]

Wow, sometimes I forget people keep posting to these things.  Interesting to see it was renamed.

First of all, Datruth, stop posting double spaced and with red/bold crap.  It just looks stupid and it's annoying.

Secondly, one of the requirements to join the team is the ability to work with the team.  From the content of your posts, you're being way to condescending for that, and in addition to Karyuu and Xordan, I wouldn't really want to work with you either at this rate.

With respect to ranks, we don't really use them that formally.  "WTB" was a term created by our "crazy Itallian" (as jokingly put by Venge ) and while it says "Want To Be", it is the primary dev rank.  I probably should've asked for a promotion to "member" myself, but frankly I haven't needed to care.  Not like I'd get magical uber powers from it.  We might want to start actually using these titles at some point, as we get an influx of more people to the team.

With respect to the applications, as I already said, those lists are backed up.  It looks like Talad has cleaned up the graphics ones recently, but not settings yet.  That one tends to get fewer good applications, and more people who think they know how to "make a game", and simply don't.

Please, I don't see that much of value in this thread.  Drop the junk or it will be locked.

[Karyuu]

I split the thread, not just renamed It was veryvery off-topic from the original Ojaveda Improvements theme.

Split topics! Hail SMF!

[DaveG]

Ah, ok.

Oh, if you were wondering how backed up:  The settings dept. application list has a good thirty-something people awaiting review.

[Datruth]

Well, let me just put what i got out of this.

Used to think dev team cared a ton about us, and in some ways they do but not as much as i thought.

If their needs, conflict with ours, theirs win out. That may be fine for some people, but i just had to know if that was the truth. So i started reading the forums with an open mind. All i got was, you are testers, this game isn't done, your input is appreciated but we have our own plans for this game. So i thought, how could i help this game or atleast have a say? I was told to join dev team. Now i'm told getting into the dev team is highly unlikely and is rare. Once in, your still under the influence of higher ranking members.

So I got a few points out of it.

This game is ruled by a few members who ultimately decide how it becomes regardless of user input.

Like if we wanted to get rid of Gold altogether, but dev team disagreed, it would never happen, ever.
And if you ever wanted an influencing voice, you'd still be squashed if you joined the dev team. The worst thing i learned though is that people who question these policies are ridiculed and called annoying and it, EVEN by fellow players, whose opinions i'm fighting for. All i wanted was to help this VERY BUSY dev team. All i got was, we're too busy to go through the prospect list and give people asignments to help us.

If you were soo busy, you'd need help, you'd desperatly ask for it, you'd have a shortage of helpers, I believe karyuu and Daveg COMPLAINED about lack of help, saying only about 10 people were on. WEll you have help, you have prospects, at least 30, by Daveg's Count, and yet you don't ask for their help? Why is that?

Anyways, i've learned my lessons. I understand the law of the land and i'll follow it. You wanted a submissive Datruth, and you won, hope your happy. And here are the laws of the land as per Dev's words:

• 1. All user input is Subservient to Dev input, regarldess of what's said.
• 2. Those who question such, Monarchial policies, will be fought, as per the attention this thread has gotten from the devs.
• 3. If you truly want to help the dev team, donate money, because being a prospect will only make them busier, and their are no guarentees you'll get in.

Again, golden rule:

Don't go against anything the Dev's say, don't even question it, don't even argue,

Remember:

You're just here to test, and with that, i end this thread, as a memory for the fight of democracy for the players of PS, and for the plea of the people who want to help the Dev's, but get rejected.
For the people, who get shot down, their ideas too far fetched, cause the dev team is Too busy to implement them.
For the wish list section, where pleas can be made, answered only if they go along with the Dev's wishes.
And with that, i submit to their rule and power.

[LigH]

As far as I heard, we may have a new settings prospect; but the one I mean will know it better if that is correct.

And I am sure that he will do a good job, he has been a great roleplayer before.

[Karyuu]

You understand nothing, Datruth.

If their needs, conflict with ours, theirs win out.

This has never been, and will never be, a democracy. This is Talad's brainchild.

Now i'm told getting into the dev team is highly unlikely and is rare. Once in, your still under the influence of higher ranking members.

Damn straight you're still under the influence of the higher ups Show me any development team that allows new members to walk all over the old and change things around. Besides, it is the Settings department that is hard to get into, because Talad is very particular about what kind of people he wants creating his world. The other departments are easier if your work has quality.

This game is ruled by a few members who ultimately decide how it becomes regardless of user input.

Welcome to PlaneShift. Is this such a shock? We don't create the game based on player demand. We create based on our own time, wants, and plans. This is how things are. This is how they have been, and will remain.

And if you ever wanted an influencing voice, you'd still be squashed if you joined the dev team.

Of course, if your 'influence' goes against everything every other member in the team is working on, interferes with their work, or is just wild and crazy Of course, you haven't said what kind of influence you expect to bring in, even though I have asked you in this thread. You said you just wanted to help out, as well.

The worst thing i learned though is that people who question these policies are ridiculed and called annoying and it, EVEN by fellow players, whose opinions i'm fighting for.

Maybe they disagree with you? Maybe they don't need you to "fight" for them? Maybe they are happy and patient and trusting, more than you?

All i wanted was to help this VERY BUSY dev team. All i got was, we're too busy to go through the prospect list and give people asignments to help us.

Yes, that's unfortunate but it's a reality. Talad is the main guy who handles prospects, and he doesn't always have the time to give them 100% of his attention. You have applied yesterday. Yesterday! It's crazy to expect a response so quickly. People sometimes wait weeks, but they get their tasks, do an awesome job, and life continues happily. We don't have a professional 24/7 prospect support system. Please deal with this.

WEll you have help, you have prospects, at least 30, by Daveg's Count, and yet you don't ask for their help? Why is that?

Why is it so hard for you to understand that managing prospects is a time-consuming job? GM applications have been put on hold because of prospects. Talad gets swamped, with PS, with bugs, with his real jobs and travel and many other duties. But patience pays off, for everyone. If they have it, that is, as you have proven you don't.

You're just here to test, and with that, i end this thread, as a memory for the fight of democracy for the players of PS, and for the plea of the people who want to help the Dev's, but get rejected.

Datruth, this "democracy" never existed. You haven't even been rejected as a prospect. You just lack the patience to wait a few days so you can get your tasks and do a great job. So cut the crap and stop complaining about some virtual rightous battle with the development team for the fate of the Player Voice.

The only thing that has been rejected here is your arrogant attitude.

[LARAGORN]

All i wanted was to help this VERY BUSY dev team. All i got was, we're too busy to go through the prospect list and give people asignments to help us.

Yes, that's unfortunate but it's a reality. Talad is the main guy who handles prospects, and he doesn't always have the time to give them 100% of his attention. You have applied yesterday. Yesterday! It's crazy to expect a response so quickly. People sometimes wait weeks, but they get their tasks, do an awesome job, and life continues happily. We don't have a professional 24/7 prospect support system. Please deal with this.

This all started cause he couldnt handle the walk to Oja.
What makes you think he could wait 24 hours for a reply to his application.

@Datruth, You have not, and never shall be a spokes person for the players.

[Valbrandr]

Datruth, I have no idea who you are (atleast not by that name) but you raise many of the same questions that have been running through my head. And when I came up with the answers I felt the same way you do now. Sure I will be ridiculed for what I am about to say. But, there seems to be just a shell of a community here. I have been with PS for nearly  2 years and I do think things have changed.

I used to feel as if each person here mattered. Thinking that "our" voice meant something. And Ill continue to believe that at one point or another it did. But times have changed. Many of the oldbies/ middlebies have been run off with a huge influx of newbies. And I think the devs would rather have it this way. No one with the big heads thinking they have influence or power over anyone. Just new people that are more likely not to complain because they see how nice PS has come along.

It was when I joined the GM team that I started to understand how the world works. Its an oligarchy, a group of people running everthing. And im not just talking about the devs: Prominent GMs can trample on you just as much.

Let me make myself clear, I dont want to ever leave PS... but I feel like I am being kept away (which is in my own head) because I have lost faith in the community overall. At one time thnings were different. Maybe we weren't united but we were so much closer than todays so called community.  The community of today is more like a GM sponsored event of "Who can call it a community the longest."

There is atleast one community within PS.. made up of Devs, WTB Devs, and GMs.

One more thing before I get some sleep:

- Please due away with the wish list... Any idea put forth that is good is already "planned" and the others that are not are either stupid or ignored.

Well I have spoken my peace for now... I hope this thread stays open.

Edit: Daruth, of course it does take time to be considered for the dev team the same as it does for the GM team. Thats just how PS, maybe all MMOs, work.

[Karyuu]

There are a ton of good threads in the Wishlist - and you'll be surprised at how often they are looked through The problem is that only a tiny fractions of those ideas can be implemented at this time, because most of them depend on many features yet to be seen.

I adore the Wishlist. I love seeing ideas, because many of them are so new to me. And I'm sorry if peope feel that their threads are being ignored if they have legitimate ideas. But we can't always comment nor can we stamp a thread with an "Approved!"

Whatever the GM team once was, it no longer is. And that's both welcome and sad.


There's a point to be made here: player input is very very, veryvery welcome. But 1) we have time limits to spend on PS, and 2) inputs do not mean demands. When someone starts being demanding about what they want and how they'll no longer stand it and they want things here and now, that player throws away his voice instead of raising it.

Players are important, sure. But we sure as heck don't "serve" you. We serve PS. Part of that just happens to be a responsibility for keeping the community happy, and we go beyond the call of duty in ensuring that need gets met. So instead of causing problems for us VOLUNTEERS -us people who are doing this for YOU, for FREE, with our own feelings getting smashed to hell in return- why don't you just run along and have fun like everybody else.

Blunt, but Moogs <3

[DaveG]

Just a clarification:  I counted 30ish pending applications in the settings department; not prospects.  I'd expect most of those to get rejected outright just due to bad/spam applications.

Secondly, donating money isn't exactly the biggest of help at the moment.  (in the future, it might be, but not really now)  If you know how to program, apply to the programming team; if you can create textures or model in 3D, apply to the graphics teams.  (yes, settings, music, and the PR "team" aren't exactly hot-spots...)

Getting rid of the wish list is a horrible idea.  Make no mistake, we're not going to just throw whatever ideas are requested into the game, however more than one decent idea has spawned in that thing.  Yes, it's often full of spam and people requesting the obvious, but I like to hope that every now and again it's vaguely useful.  There hasn't been that many good new suggestions in a while, but I'm optimistic, and it doesn't hurt to keep around.

The community connectedness here is very much a result of tone and how connection attempts are made.  When someone starts off a thread with "We want fixes, and we want them now.", yes, they'll be told to go to Hell.  On the other hand, if someone finds bugs and actually fixes them, they can become a dev rather easily.  Too many people seem to think it'd be a *poof* now you're a dev, thing, and it's not.  No, you actually have to contribute for a bit.

The simple statement of "no, this is not a democracy" should not be some sort of shock.  Do you really think we'd just implement whatever the players felt like requesting?  If a bunch of people said, "hey, dying sucks, can you get rid of it?" the answer is no.  The idea that somehow we are working for the players is very strange.  Yes, I would love to get good suggestions from players and implement them right away, but that usually doesn't happen.  From your prespective, it looks like we're ignoring perfectly valid suggestions, from ours it's often quite the opposite.

This game is ruled by a few members who ultimately decide how it becomes regardless of user input.

Like if we wanted to get rid of Gold altogether, but dev team disagreed, it would never happen, ever.

I'd like to know: Why does this sound odd to you?  Seriously, to continue the example (yes, I know it's not a realistic one), gold ore is a perfectly valid thing that one could find inside a giant cave.  If a bunch of players, or even all the players, decided that they didn't like it, tough.  We put it in there and it's going to stay because we agree with our reasoning.  I'm astounded that anyone would assume the contrary.  Random people, most of which we don't really know, do not get to decide upon the development process.  If, however, there was some problem with the way gold was being used, lets say it was too common or something, then yes, we'd be stupid to ignore that.  We highly encourage player input, but please don't think that means we're somehow working for you.

Look, the concepts of us having the final say and you having a say are not mutually exclusive.  Yes, of course PlaneShift would never be where it is without players and player input, but you also must understand it would never be where it is if players had the final say on everything.  We'd be RuneScape's evil twin if we did that.  We are the ones making this thing, and we will decide how it progresses.  More than one good idea has come from the Wish List (some in already, some on the waiting list) and I hope that more will follow.  However, more than a billion bad ones are there too, and frankly the Wish List's second purpose is to house those there instead of increasing the spam count in our inboxes.

Karyuu:  Perfect Moogie quote.    Rather nicely sums things up here.

[Santiago]

I enjoy the sudden "I'm a victim!" turn he has taken in the last few posts.

In the beginning:
"we won't stand for this!"
"this is phony!"
"we want it right now!"
"you're all tyrants!"

Now:
"why is everybody attacking me? "

If nothing else, it is entertainment. Good morning, world! Now where's my coffee...?

[zhai]

A simple fact: what's urgent preceeds what's important. think about it: having such a small team developing the game and juggling with so many responsibilities must bring a certain amount of daily tasks that can take over (like keeping the server up, fixing bugs, etc.) so we can continue enjoying the game every day. It's obvious that some very important tasks (like expanding the settings or developing all the skills) will have to be placed after the ones that allow the game to be played at all. It is not urgent that all races have the animationes for them to sit or greet. It's important, but not urgent. When a new skill such as repair is being implemented, making sure it works well and killing the bugs that come up is urgent, and we've seen it: they worked it out pretty quickly considering all the other stuff they got in their plate.

I haven't been around for that long but I feel the community receives all the attention it can get. Otherwise we wouldn't have forums. Our ideas are heard but the time needed to react to them has to be coherent with the tasks that need to be tackled based on the urgency factor. If we're thinking there should be new NPCs or that the map should be changed or that different skills should be developed, we're talking about big changes which need further consideration and discussion, especially if we're talking about someone's vision of a world. And besides, how about the plans we don't know about that are being followed? What if there's going to be a future public transportation system we don't know about yet? Flying creatures? Telportation? Laying out the map has to come first and if for a while we need to do the big sprint between Ojaveda and Hydlaa then so be it, it's part of the process, and, for God's sake, it's not that long!

So, instead of demanding changes, I suggest to make the most out of what we have and be patient. It doesn't mean "get along with everybody" or "be submissive" to "the man". It means that the things you see in PS are part of a process, intended to evolve into something that has already been thought through or at least discussed. Spontaneous changes and adjustments are made but just like our roleplays and events, things are planned with a purpose and steps defined to reach satisfying possible outcomes. When we have a big thing in mind, RP needs certain guidelines and then play it the best way we can.

In the long term, we all benefit from every action the development team take (even the ones we don't immediately like). If what they do is not good enough for you, you can always choose not to participate (just like we have the freedom to refuse to get involved in any RP ingame). It is easy to ignore what others have to go through and it's even easier to take things that are free for granted. Let's not lose perspective here and focus our energy on optimizing the resources we have to make significant contributions to the development of the game.

[Jekkar]

Please, I don't see that much of value in this thread.  Drop the junk or it will be locked.

But I see value in it, can you meet my wishes now by keeping this thread open? Neither do I see junk, I see well-formed and gramatically correct posts.
Although I agree with Valbrandr and Datruth, especially what he said here: "You're just here to test, and with that, i end this thread, as a memory for the fight of democracy for the players of PS, and for the plea of the people who want to help the Dev's, but get rejected.
For the people, who get shot down, their ideas too far fetched, cause the dev team is Too busy to implement them.
For the wish list section, where pleas can be made, answered only if they go along with the Dev's wishes.
And with that, i submit to their rule and power." I'm not even gonna bother posting my thoughts, since they will only be ignored by lots of the higher ranked people of the game anyway. Like its done at the wishlist section.

(Btw: do people that apply to the team simply get ignored when they are not good enough, or do they get a mail back saying they are not good enough? Cause I would rather have recieved a mail back then just be ignored when I applied several months ago.)

[neko kyouran]

One small little side note about the wishlist area since it was brought up... As dave mentioned it is/was a messy place but working with Karyuu, I've cleaned it up a bit.  By last count, over 1000 posts have been deleted/moved elsewhere to where they are more appropriate simply becuase they were in the wrong section or were duplicates.  So it is a much cleaner area. Granted I've got many more pages of archive to read through, but I'm a working on it.  This is my little project I have volunteered for, my way of giving back to the game that has given so much to me in more ways than I can ever say in public. 

To all, if you see something you don't like, don't simply demand that it be changed.  Instead, perhaps set it upon yourself to volunteer to change it.  Whether it's writing a fix to a bug in the code, providing player insight onto how the in game world is turning, providng your talents as an artist to the team, the list goes on and on.

Saying something needs to be changed and it needs to be changed "now" only does so much.  What really helps is setting it upon yourself to help out in what ever way you feel you can.   Also, please don't speak as if you are the voice of the whole.  No one has that title.  Voice your opinions as your own opinions, let others speak for themselves.  And finally, patience is golden.  And now this kitty needs his rest.  Good night.

[Xordan]

(Btw: do people that apply to the team simply get ignored when they are not good enough, or do they get a mail back saying they are not good enough? Cause I would rather have recieved a mail back then just be ignored when I applied several months ago.)

It depends. If you filled everything in correctly, then you will get a reply back. If you didn't fill everything in correctly, you won't hear anything.