Author Topic: Hierarchy atrocities  (Read 9848 times)

Phinehas

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #15 on: September 15, 2006, 12:27:45 pm »
Please do explain your point of view, as for a Guild that it works for, Elemental Light functions quite well with this principal.
If a problem occurs that needs an immediate resoloution I tend to poll online members in guild chat and go with the consensus,
its worked so far, obviously any non-immediate threat is dealt with via polls on our forums.
Im interested to hear your reasoning though.
That's what I thought. This system works ok for the larger guilds, but not the smaller guilds I've been in. If you have a guild with less than 20 members, then everyone wants to be a part of the vote, so you can't really leave anyone out. However, although it's the right thing to let everyone vote, it's going to take the rest of your life to get everyone to actually do it. In the meantime, your guild is stuck in limbo.

So essentially, what I'm saying is, if you have a hundred members, and you can get 50 of them in-game at the same time to vote, then you're all right, but if you've only got 15 members and only 6 of them are around to vote, then it gets sort of unfair.

It also depends on your guild structure. If you're a mass-recruiting guild then democracy is really the only thing that makes sense, but if you're a selective-recruiting guild then democratic system becomes clumsy.I just think that in a guild situation, if you want everyone to help make a decision, then EVERYONE needs to be involved, not just half or most or whatever. Whereas if guild policy is controlled by a few higher ranking members who are respected and trusted by the rest, it streamlines the process. The only difficulty with that is that your guilds have to be more selective.

Arka

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #16 on: September 16, 2006, 04:38:56 pm »
Thank you Phinehas

You have, most elegantly, expressed a matter that has been on my mind of late; the difficulty of managing a meaningful hierarchy which:
a) motivates members to progress (at all levels)
b) ensures that all members, even the most senior, face appropriate chalenges
c) makes the best structure to ensiure a fair distribution of authority (not too many chiefs and too few indians)

I believe our new structure makes use of this:

It is divided into 3 sections - Learners, Teachers and Leaders

Each level is marked by its transition to the next:
Initiates (within a month) will sit the entrants exam and become Students
Students will gradiuate with a Batchelor of Science or Arts and become Cognates
Cognates will graduate with a Master of Science or Arts and become Scrutators

Scrutators will be researchers who gather information for the teachers. They will produce a piece of work (opus) for their Doctorate.
A Scrutator may apply for the post of Proctor (examinor)
Proctors and Scrutators may apply for the chair of Professor.

Each of the four faculties will have a Dean

Voting is by all members on issues of general interest and membership issues.
Stratgy is voted on by the Central Council of Professors, Deans and Praesidior (with the casting vote of the Chancellor)  This way, decisions are taken at the appropriate level.

The Praedisior may be voted out by a majority of the Central Council.

The Chancellor (a titular, lifetime post) can be voted out exceptionally by a unanimous vote to the Central Coucil.

I hope this arrangement would meet with your approval. I would welcome a critique.

One more thing.

Promotion is through the awarding of guild points - the tests for these become more exacting as one progresses and the number of points awarded for each task comleted reduces. This ensures that the distribution of members diminishes as the rank increases. But, the achievement of high rank is available to all those willingn to work for it.

Arka Garam

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Phinehas

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #17 on: September 16, 2006, 04:43:32 pm »
But what do your lower levels have to do other than just try and "level" in the guild?

Arka

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #18 on: September 16, 2006, 05:05:31 pm »
Good pioint

The lower levels (if they want to progress) either complete a series of quests of increasing difficulty or
Carry out a piece of research that adds to the knowledge of the guild.

High flyers can progress quickly
But everyone can make steady progress

Leaders and teachers make guild points by helping lower level players; Professors make points by mentoring Students and Cognates; Proctors make points by setting exams.

Deans make points by collating articles for the Guild Library.

Everyone has a job to do!

Arka

Phinehas

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #19 on: September 16, 2006, 11:24:44 pm »
It's very thought through, but for the lower levels isn't it still basically trying to get to higher levels?

Arka

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2006, 03:09:51 am »
Well, I would prefer if the lower levels were striving to achieve thie degrees. People can stay as Cognates or Scrutators and collecrt higher degrees (as people do in RL!).

But I will look at it again - maybe some fine tuning is needed...

Thanks for the general thumbs up!

Arka

Phinehas

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2006, 09:58:58 am »
I understand that that's the way your guild is built. That's perfectly fine. I'm not actually saying that every guild has to be geared towards the low levels. Still though, wouldn't it be nice for them to be able to contribute while they were still low? Anyways, your guild actually has a  very good hierarchy. I am content.

Cyl

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #22 on: September 19, 2006, 02:21:54 pm »
Actually I still think that a multilevel hierachy is not necessarily needed for a guild. The way I see this, the problem is that higher and lower ranks are not equal. And what would be the most obvious solution? To make them equal of course, consistently, from the necessary "Guild Leader" to the Newcomer.

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Phinehas

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #23 on: September 19, 2006, 02:27:08 pm »
Actually I still think that a multilevel hierachy is not necessarily needed for a guild. The way I see this, the problem is that higher and lower ranks are not equal. And what would be the most obvious solution? To make them equal of course, consistently, from the necessary "Guild Leader" to the Newcomer.

*Cyl is hit by a fireball and crumbles to ashes.
I'm not sure I got that, other than the fireball thing. You're saying there should be no ranks?

Sangwa

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #24 on: September 28, 2006, 11:35:53 am »
He's saying guilds can have no hierarchy. I've seen it somewhere.

Great post Phinehas, definitely a must for guild members new and old.
Disclaimer: This is my opinion and I can be reasoned with. I'm probably right, though.

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zanzibar

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #25 on: September 28, 2006, 11:46:36 am »
Great post Phinehas, definitely a must for guild members new and old.

I don't think his post was all that.  It was rather narrow minded and it generalized like whoa.  There are a lot of different guilds out there and there have been a lot of different guilds out there.  I know I've only been in about half of them, but from what I've seen, there's a real diversity out there in terms of leadership structure and internal operations.


If you have a guild with less than 20 members, then everyone wants to be a part of the vote, so you can't really leave anyone out.

That's not true at ALL.  Some guilds are like that, but many are not.  That's where good leadership and real charisma come into play.

Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Phinehas

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #26 on: September 28, 2006, 11:56:01 am »
Keep in mind, Zanzibar, that this thread is more for newbies who are thinking of creating a guild or who have already done so. It's also for those long-time guild leaders who are looking for ideas, or wondering why they're failing in certain areas. This is by no means "law".

zanzibar

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #27 on: September 28, 2006, 12:09:24 pm »
Keep in mind, Zanzibar, that this thread is more for newbies who are thinking of creating a guild or who have already done so. It's also for those long-time guild leaders who are looking for ideas, or wondering why they're failing in certain areas. This is by no means "law".



Uh... I don't see what that has to do with what I said.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.

Phinehas

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #28 on: September 28, 2006, 12:23:16 pm »
Great post Phinehas, definitely a must for guild members new and old.

I don't think his post was all that.  It was rather narrow minded and it generalized like whoa.  There are a lot of different guilds out there and there have been a lot of different guilds out there. 
Keep in mind, Zanzibar, that this thread is more for newbies who are thinking of creating a guild or who have already done so. It's also for those long-time guild leaders who are looking for ideas, or wondering why they're failing in certain areas. This is by no means "law".
What I'm saying is. You're judging the content as if I meant to impose my ideals onto all guilds, but that's not true. These are just... not-so-gentle suggestions.

zanzibar

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Re: Hierarchy atrocities
« Reply #29 on: September 28, 2006, 12:54:39 pm »
It's your observations I take issue with, not your ideals.
Quote from: Raa
Immaturity is FTW.