IMPORTANT: How you talk to NPCs has changed!

[zanzibar]

System has been reverted for now, or will be within the next week or so I think (whenever the server is updated).

Good!  It's nice to know you're listening to the community.

We'll probably look at having a mix of both or something later on.

I sure hope not!  Not unless there's a good reason for it, like someone who's hard of hearing!  "Eh, what's that you say sonny?  Somebody said my name?"

[Under the moon]

*rolls his eyes at the gloating*

I have read through this entire thread, and it seems to me that many folks like many different options for talking to the dreaded NPCs, and will never agree on one very limited system. That is called being human. I have made my opinion known already on the subject as an RPer. I wish to comment on some of the other suggestions.

Click/talk: The old system. Servicable, easy to use to some, hard for others, and somewhat roleplayable. From a RP point of view, you walk up and look the NPC in the eye and ask your question. 'Clicking' indicates your attention is on them, whether that is with eye contact, body position, or tone of voice. Since it is private, you decide which of these methods best suits your RP. But, as said, it is private, and there is no good way to RP that in a public space. No getting around that with any system besides an open chat where everyone has to stand in line to talk, and everything is 'heard'.

Name/talk/time: The system in question. Ease of use is questionable. For one thing, the names of the NPCs are quite long and very odd. I have seen many people 'talk' to 'Hanrquist' or such without getting him to talk back. The "you will just have to get better at typing and spelling" stand just does not cut it here, and is more than insulting to those who are not so good. Pros? If you know the NPC then it is a good way to start a talk, as it is how an RPer will speak to another real person. However, if you are with others, it is an RP nightmare.

Look/name/talk: This is where you have to be facing the NPC and say their name. As long as you are looking at the NPC, your focus and conversation stays with it. RP-wise, this is better than the Name/talk/time system, though still has the problem of looking away, then having to re-say the name to focus on the NPC again. Not very good for complex RP.

Click/look-to-talk: The shop owner system. When buying something from a shop, you rarely know the person's name. In this system, you click on the NPC to target it and let the system know you intend to focus on it. However, you do not focus until you look at the NPC directly. If the NPC is selected, and you are looking at it within a certain angle, the system assumes you are talking to the NPC. If you turn away to talk to someone else, focus is lost until you turn back to the NPC. The basis for this system is actual RP between people, where they will often face the person they wish to talk to. It may be also called the Look/click/look-to-talk, as you tend to face the NPC to select it. This may be confusing to many new players, so can not be the default setting. **see note

Look/name-or-click/talk: Same as above, but saying the NPCs name anywhere in a statement (or at the beginning or end) while looking at it assumes focus without targeting, and just that statement will be directed at the NPC. No targeting is required. Any statement after that  without targeting the NPC will be assumed as not directed at it.

Command: A system creating a 'channel' for talking to NPCs only. This makes some sense to me, since talking to NPCs is basically like tells between players. I suggest /npc, being the obvious choice for talking to an NPC. For talking to NPCs that are close together, either looking at the one you want to talk to, or typing /npc <NPC's name> <text> would suffice. A /npc hotkey would be a nice addition, much as /tell works. The hotkey would contiue to select the NPC you were looking at, or talked to last. A tab channel could be created as well for NPCs, as it would make scrolling up to remember what the last NPC in a quest told you. RP-wise, this is a viable option and easy to learn. It does not interfere with talking to others in any way, nor does it have a time limit or focus issue.

**note: Options! Do not assume the system you chose is the right one just because you are the Developer. Give people options, and let them choose which system they like best in a checkbox advanced chat options menu. You allow people to assign keyboard controls, detail levels, label visibility, chat filters, character mesh/textures, and class, so why limit how they can speak with NPCs? The way to do this would have been to start integrating the new system in, and asking how folks liked it, not just putting it in and saying: "This is better." There is always room for options.

As for now, I take an option many others have taken to as well: I don't talk to NPCs at all. As I am a roleplayer interested on making the world inside the game the best it can be, this should have you worried.

[Nilrem]

I think it's good that the old system is back.

Zanzibar said that at the short term, the "new" system would only be able to equal the "old" one. I understand what Zanzibar meant, and agree to that. The only difference would have been how to address to NPC (not clicking but using a sentence starting/ending with his/her name) once the problems of absorbing conversations for themselves (pointed by Nilaya) and others were solved.

In the long term, though, I see the intentions of Vengeance. Making NPC alive, and interventioning in player talks, if they're named somehow. But that would require, in the first place, that NPC did not absorb the conversation (something that _fortunately_ does now) and talked openly, to anyone in range. Unfortunately, the time is not now.

We've quests ruled by NPC awaiting sentences to be said to them. Those sentences are somewhat predictable. Read this as, if we know this NPC gives the laanx scroll, we know he, somehow, will be asked about it. As it is now, the NPC sentence recognition is being worked out and tried to improve. Fact is, though, that NPC aren't able to react to "predictable" sentences. For Vengeance implementation to be really more realistic and immersive, NPC should be able to react, realistically, to unpredictable sentences (PC can talk about, theoretically, any topic using the NPC name in the sentence)

In other words, the "new" system relied in a functionality that, still, isn't there in order to be really effective and consist a major difference regarding the "old" system.

Side note: Nilaya commented about NPC talks, and that "adopt" an NPC system seems that may work. In any case, I wanted to comment about another thing she pointed out. Culture. I am against NPC giving key (read it basic) culture knowledge. With that I group any information that may be a basic ground to any roleplayer to know the world he/she is going to play in, its habits, how the races are, etc. IMO, NPC can give information, yes, but mainly personal anecdotes. Major basic information for the player has to be given in the playerguide and with accessible for all mediums, such as libraries. I understand the feeling of giving a "reward" to someone that talked to an NPC about, say, cities, or races... but that "reward" can never be a pillar for the roleplay. All players should have equal access to the basics of the world they're going to play in. I expect the NPC to give, then, as they would in real life, more personal anecdotes, than really being the only key to access a knowledge that should be common (race habits, location naming... that should be able to be found in a library, or the player guide) it is inconsistent, to my eyes, that in order to know the name of the Octarch of the first level, the player has to go to an NPC that acts as her hairmaker (IIRC) and ask her about him.

So, information to the players, directly, or openly avaiable. Using essencial information as a reward of talking to a certain NPC may appeal that one who discovered it, but creates a "crack" amongst the player base that may lead to inconsistences.

[Ice_Stovo]

LOL, finnaly i will be happy everytime the server goes down, because there will be new charakter I can speak with!!! (end of sarcasm)  I think the best way will be to keep both systems (targeting/talking) and eye contact is great idea.

[minetus]

@nilrem i kinda disagree, npc's should be able to speak about the places they live in, or they traveled thro, places were they came from (ancestors) this is something that they could be able to speak about, altho this may not aply to every single npc.
as it happens in real life not every one keeps tracking of were theyr grand grand... parents lived, who they were, and what they did...

this details may not be recorded in books in librarys, but they may be recorded and contain "secret" history details, besides the personal details

[Nilrem]

I don't say they should not talk about places they live in. As I say they can talk about their personal experiences.

What I say is that a player has to have ways to know about the settings, at least the basics informations of it, without need to talk to NPC. Setting information has to be put avaiable to players not with NPC talk, but with the player guide.

[minetus]

i agree with that...
just dont agree with the example you gave

[high]

I still can't talk to npcs.... I tried with Toda and Merrinez. I said stuff like :

"Hello Toda", "Hello toda", "Toda hello", "toda hello"..I tried about, asking a question, selecting the npc before talking, and the old way of doing things, but nothing works....

[neko kyouran]

To the best of my knowledge, Toda never was converted to the new system.  Also, I believe the old system hasn't been reinstated just yet.  Soooo, have a little patience and the devs will get everything fixed in good time.

[zanzibar]

*rolls his eyes at the gloating*

It's not gloating at all, silly.  When someone does something I approve of, I say so.

[Kerol]

Hm.. interesting topic.

My thoughts:

1. The old system sucks because - as Vengeance realised - it's just unnatural. It works out somehow but it's not perfect.
2. The new system sucks because there are too many flaws and system inherent problems.
3. The old system already has that "NPC channel" UTM wants - its a /tell-like /say. Nothing new and nothing I'd advice to go even further with.

4.

I would not be opposed to implementing more of an "eye contact" system, in which if you talk and you are within 2 meters of an npc, facing within 15 degrees of pointing directly at him, he would interpret that as you talking to him without saying his name.  I didn't do that the first time because it seems more error prone but perhaps people would get used to it.

Infact I already asked a couple of times on the wishlist about direction dependant effects.
Only a few examples where a more generic "eye contact" system would be helpful:
- sneaking and chances of getting detected (being in front = 100% ; being in the back = 0% chance of getting noticed)
- pickpocketing just the same - the more you are in the back the higher is the chance of a successful pickpocketing
- direction dependant damage (getting hit in the back doubles the damage for instance)
- backstabbing - the more you are in the back of your target, the higher is the chance to be successful in backstabbing
- direction dependant spells for instance like "the evil eye" that only has an effect if you are looking into ones eyes

With all those possibilities I strongly advice to implement a generic direction detection and have the targetting only one use of that system.

Now back on topic:
What about automatically /target the entity (NPC or player) that is just in those 2m and 15° of the range?
It should be possible to deactivate the auto-targetting in the options as it might get annoying while being in a crowd but in general it could make life a lot easier - and controls more natural as you wouldn't have to mouse-click, just look.

5. I've heard that NPCs will be able to auto-greet passengers. If they also automatically turn to the one whom they greet, this could be combined with the auto-targetting.
For instance an NPC (who is awake and isn't too busy) could turn automatically to the one who targets, then greet - automatically again.
Turning around wouldn't change the target unless one looks or manually target someone else.
This way it doesn't require the name calling anymore and no timer.

6.

As far as everyone knowing everyone else's name without being introduced, this topic has been discussed since 2001.  It is simply too much overhead for too little reward to track each and every introduction made by every player to every player or npc.

There I disagree. Even if something like that won't be implemented (which I hope it will!), I strongly recommend to have a list of responses from NPCs saved client-sided. It adds a lot of realism if NPCs don't just great with "hello there" but with "welcome back, [name]" or "I have missed you, my dear [name]".
It's not just a little detail in my eyes but a whole new feeling.

[Datruth]

Kerols ideas seem wonderfull, i agree with most of them, but there are a few that could be worked out.

That's for another thread and another time.

But anyways, i just wanted to know why the NPC's weren't fixed  yet and what the E.T.A was on them.

~~Datruth

[narita]

What about automatically /target the entity (NPC or player) that is just in those 2m and 15° of the range?
It should be possible to deactivate the auto-targetting in the options as it might get annoying while being in a crowd but in general it could make life a lot easier - and controls more natural as you wouldn't have to mouse-click, just look.

If someone is calling your name in your back, don't you turn your head to him? Why would the AI think "no, he doesn't call me 15° in front, I'll ignore him"? If the NPC is unable to turn to you, just RP he does.

The more irrealist thing about NPC is people crowding around them when a good bussiness can be done, the NPC is beeing trading and talking multiple people in the same time. Beeing also a source of exploit generating wipes time to time, I suppose it will eventualy be fixed.  How would you conciliate a fix with a resticted talking area with a locking mechanism? People will do the queue walking upon each others.

[Nikodemus]

What about automatically /target the entity (NPC or player) that is just in those 2m and 15° of the range?
It should be possible to deactivate the auto-targetting in the options as it might get annoying while being in a crowd but in general it could make life a lot easier - and controls more natural as you wouldn't have to mouse-click, just look.

If someone is calling your name in your back, don't you turn your head to him? Why would the AI think "no, he doesn't call me 15° in front, I'll ignore him"? If the NPC is unable to turn to you, just RP he does.

I believe Kerol meant PC 15°, not NPC. You don't have to be in the 15° of NPC in front of him to talk with him ;P
- The NPC could turn to you as you start talking. If there are few PCs talking to him at once, then he will choose one of them.
- What if there are two NPCs in the 2m 15° area? The closest NPC is choosen as target.
- Why keep this targetting? So that you know exactly when everythink what you say goes to NPC and when it goes to public.
- Visual effect for this different kind of targetting. At the ground, a 2m 15° coloured surface with 30% transparency could appear if there is NPC in its range. Or a normal targetting marker.

This way you obviously dont have to click the NPC to talk to him (funny, because i never click it, but target it in different way (simply because way too often pointer on NPC and click isn acual to targetting, yeah, not whole surface of NPC is targetable )), but its is targetted automatically, so this unrealistic for some people bit with clicking is gone.
Really gone.

[Maerghaine]

i have an issue with the idea of being within a certain range of the npc's direction.
There are places, most notably in the magic shop, where i cannot find the npc without placing my character in odd positions.  If i cannot see the npc, i cannot know where he is facing.  To see hiim, sometimes, i have to stand in the doorway to the stairs to his left and behind him; therefore, i could not interact with him under the "cone speaking" method.